Mild 6.0L Build Suggestions?

[iamdub]

FMLx1000 More lifter hell.

I measured ALL my valves for zero lash point with rocker arms installed and lifters pumped up in heads. I'm hitting zero lash at 7.4649" Link HERE

I then add the 0.035" preload per Johnson Lifter Spec and getting a pushrod length of 7.495" (they come in increments of 5 thousands I believe).

Roger at Vinci cams says he's never sold a pushrod for a build like mine over 7.450". Although he's never used Johnson lifters before. Any ideas?

Notes:

My lifters are 2116LSR preload of 0.035" +/- 0.010" after speaking with Johnson Tech. I left Johnson Lifters a second message about this question but have not heard back yet.

By lifters pumped up I mean, I soaked in oil all day turning them several times to get air out. When I push down on lifter by hand with pushrod it's like a rock.

Head gasket is a Fel Pro per factory spec / LQ9 it compressed to 0.053"

Heads were resurfaced (I don't know how much) and all valves were ground.

Rocker arms torqued to spec?

 

[Matthew Jeschke]

No just snug but off by 115 thousands on preload. Wish it *** that simple haha

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[Matthew Jeschke]

I think the seat might be farther down on these lifters. I cannot find any specs sheet or instruction manual for these 2116LSR lifters though. Somebody mentioned on LS1tech.com that they had to order longer pushrods to run them.

 

[iamdub]

No just snug but off by 115 thousands on preload. Wish it *** that simple haha

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Not saying this is your issue, but you need to have the rockers torqued. Be sure the mating surfaces are 100% clean. My first time doing this, my numbers were way off and inconsistent. The trunnion bolts "snugged" up wasn't good enough.

 

[1BADI5]

Yeah once all the rockers are torqued I roll the motor over a few times and verify the torque again for piece of mind

 

[Matthew Jeschke]

Turns out these lifters are shallower, requiring a longer pushrod. Three different people on LS1tech indicated that in their builds. I still don't like that I have nearly 14 thousands variance in my measurements though. I'd expected around 5 thousands due to used rocker arms (I validated that by measuring around a 1/3 of the rocker arms) and maybe a couple thousands more from the used lifters. I'd like to tighten those measurements up.

Not saying this is your issue, but you need to have the rockers torqued. Be sure the mating surfaces are 100% clean. My first time doing this, my numbers were way off and inconsistent. The trunnion bolts "snugged" up wasn't good enough.

No and kind of haha. I cleaned all the parts in a parts cleaner but they not have assembly lube on them. In various places. I wanted to take the plate off under the rockers and make sure it was clean again as well as base of the rockers.

Yeah once all the rockers are torqued I roll the motor over a few times and verify the torque again for piece of mind

I really wanted to do this to. I'd though easily a few thousands could be found from various components not being fully seated. Right now I have one valve that lies 1 thousanth out of spec for lifter. It would require a different length pushrod just for it. Problem is, I don't have any pushrods that fit. My factory ones are 115 thousands off what I need. I did try to take the old pushrods which are that 115 thousands off and still do that. I may go down to the parts store and buy just two pushrods and use those to roll motor over, then pull them out and check lash.

As for as torqueing bolts. I'd not torqued them. I had taken all slack out then went a 1/8th turn or so to seat the rocker arm I was checking. I then left all the other rockers finger tight. I think you're right, I need to torque all the rockers on the head to spec. I keep looking at that plate under the rockers and thinking it could be misaligned causing issue if not torqued to spec.

 

[iamdub]

Turns out these lifters are shallower, requiring a longer pushrod. Three different people on LS1tech indicated that in their builds. I still don't like that I have nearly 14 thousands variance in my measurements though. I'd expected around 5 thousands due to used rocker arms (I validated that by measuring around a 1/3 of the rocker arms) and maybe a couple thousands more from the used lifters. I'd like to tighten those measurements up.



No and kind of haha. I cleaned all the parts in a parts cleaner but they not have assembly lube on them. In various places. I wanted to take the plate off under the rockers and make sure it was clean again as well as base of the rockers.



I really wanted to do this to. I'd though easily a few thousands could be found from various components not being fully seated. Right now I have one valve that lies 1 thousanth out of spec for lifter. It would require a different length pushrod just for it. Problem is, I don't have any pushrods that fit. My factory ones are 115 thousands off what I need. I did try to take the old pushrods which are that 115 thousands off and still do that. I may go down to the parts store and buy just two pushrods and use those to roll motor over, then pull them out and check lash.

As for as torqueing bolts. I'd not torqued them. I had taken all slack out then went a 1/8th turn or so to seat the rocker arm I was checking. I then left all the other rockers finger tight. I think you're right, I need to torque all the rockers on the head to spec. I keep looking at that plate under the rockers and thinking it could be misaligned causing issue if not torqued to spec.

Also should have the head itself torqued to or nearly torqued to spec. Use an old gasket and the old bolts.

 

[Matthew Jeschke]

Wish I had done it with old head gaskets and bolts incase I had to pull lifters back out.

I have the head fully torqued to spec and with new head gaskets installed.

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[1BADI5]

I don't do rockers until the head, gaskets and block are all torqued together.

Then at that point you can measure for the correct push rod length

 

[Matthew Jeschke]

The heads are installed. Everything is torqued together. I just dont have pushrods. Is the last thing in my build.

Roger was concerned as he had never seen a longer pushrod than 7.450" I am getting 7.495"

Trying to track down a spec for 2116LSR lifters. Haven't found one to validate my measurements and tolerance of lifter (mine are used). Otherwise all I know is the pushrods should be longer for these.

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[fasteddy]

The heads are installed. Everything is torqued together. I just dont have pushrods. Is the last thing in my build.

Roger was concerned as he had never seen a longer pushrod than 7.450" I am getting 7.495"

Trying to track down a spec for 2116LSR lifters. Haven't found one to validate my measurements and tolerance of lifter (mine are used). Otherwise all I know is the pushrods should be longer for these.

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Thats a race type lifter isnt it.....with the bar? so no trays? Reduced Travel? for high RPMs?

Do your actual pushrods vary in length? That seems hinky....

 

[fasteddy]

Just as an FYI, I run a stock bottom end LS3 in my little midengine car.
On race day I rev that puppy to 7500 and I don't even use low travel lifters.
I use just LS7/GM Perf lifters.

I say that because just in case you have to reverse and pull the heads, You should get rid of those lifters and just use LS7s
Try to stay away from ultra high performance and used....you never know.

I thought you were doing a low rpm max TQ build right?

 

[Matthew Jeschke]

WOW torqueing down all rocker arms made a considerable difference. My zero lash distance tightened up. I measured on 3 valves and compared to previous measurements. Then stopped...

I notice my Chinese knockoff adjustable pushrod is complete garbage. I've been setting it to a specific length, taping it together, and checking it in between measurements. Even then the stupid thing varies in length. The threads on it are loosey goosey.

Curious what adjustable pushrods are good? I like this design with a locking nut but clearance would be an issue with those and the pushrod guide on head and I'm not sure what would fit.

For now I'm going to put thread locker on this pushrod AND tape it and see if that helps.

 

[Matthew Jeschke]

Just as an FYI, I run a stock bottom end LS3 in my little midengine car.
On race day I rev that puppy to 7500 and I don't even use low travel lifters.
I use just LS7/GM Perf lifters.

I say that because just in case you have to reverse and pull the heads, You should get rid of those lifters and just use LS7s
Try to stay away from ultra high performance and used....you never know.

I thought you were doing a low rpm max TQ build right?

They are short travel lifters yes. I definitely wanted the link bar and Johnson Lifters. Almost pulled trigger on set of Morel LS7 drop in lifters. Then saw these for a few $$ more. I think they'll be rock solid despite I won't need to rev to 8000 RPM. However, I didn't know about this short travel stuff when I bought them. It makes them harder to setup. They're awesome as they bleed less oil pressure and I think these or perhaps it's the next model up pumps oil to the roller as well. They had me sold. All the guys I talk to running them say they'd never go back to regular lifters afterwards. The engine builder I bought the block from said he uses nothing but Johnson lifters.

My old engine had some lifter issues. They were all plugged up. I mostly resolved it. Another engine builder said he had seen factory lifters spin despite guide trays.

Seemed biggiest issues I found search and sepakong with other builders were the cam bearings (oil pressure issues seem to trigger that) and lifter issues. Either noisey or complete lifter failure, spun, collapsed, etc.

I decided to not chance it. Was told coulent go wrong woth johnson lifters so is what I got.

 

[fasteddy]

But Johnson makes LS7 type lifters that are just a tad over OEM LS7....
But then they also make a continuum of higher and higher perf lifters for spinning higher and higher RPMs.

OK did you just say chinese adjustable pushrod?
I have never heard of that.
Sounds contrary to hardened.....which is where I lean toward.

 

[fasteddy]

So does the adjustable pushrod have a spring in it? Like for some kind of VVT simulation?
Or is it just set once to length?

You're like an LS mad scientist.

You should invite chris and jeremy over for dinner and beer and do a QA walkthrough.

 

[Tonyrodz]

Stay away from Chinese anything.

 

[fasteddy]

BTW, Happy Easter.

Sidetrack story......Don't worry, you be done one day.

I don't say mad scientist in a bad way....
I'm kind of one myself and hit and miss because R&D is painful.

Like in my quest to get to 200mph in the 1/2 mile I decided to go lighter and ditch my 3700lb GTR.
I thought I'd outsmart em with physics. Lighter car, big power go faster.
So I bought the 1800lb palatov.

First outing was 150mph with Stock LS3....full cats, Oem manifolds.
But the ET beats everyone to the flag.....but trap speed wins.
So I upgraded to Giant TSP CNC Max ported heads with LS7 exhaust ports and the biggest cam they had.
Made for 5000-7000rpms
Had the stock LS3 Manifold, because its good. MSD doesn't even make an LS3 manifold because there's no gains.
The tuner said the engine was suffocating because the big heads were trying to suck too much air through my LS3 intake.
He said to upgrade to Holley HighRam, But I didn't want to do that becuase they are aluminum and absorb heat, heatsoak, pulls timing, go slower.
So with those heads and cam and CUSTOM headers, cuz its a palatov and no one makes headers for that...it ran 165-168mph
Aside from head winds its very consistent on speed because its NA. So $8K to get 18mph.

Here's the real mad scientist part.
Researched for months and months for a bigger manifold. Found some...MAST and some others but most top mount Throttle bodies and dreaded aluminum.
Then FAST release their HIGHRISE composite manifold...front feed for LS engines. O I could do that.....famous last thought
Got a FAST HR, had NO idea if it would even fit.
Well it DID NOT. It was too high and too close to everything.
So I flipped around BACKWARDs. Then it barely fit. 1/2 inch from front radiator piping in front
But barely room in rear for throttle body and MAF....HAHA that had to go away which meant Speed Density tune....OMG what is that?
I spent a month buying extension harness and sensor adaptors and fittings and half was wrong but eventually I got it all together, BACKWARDS
NO air cleaner.....bought a Turbo Guard and put it over the throttle body with an HKS round air element.
So it all worked out after a lot of trial and error.
Now it runs 180-182mph and could now needs more fuel lol ....maybe E85 and bigger injectors.

With LS3 Manifold front facing under the radiator pipes, stock cats and mufflers



After FAST HR.....check out my turbo/HKS Air cleaner
And close I am to the front piping and rear frame member....LOL




So madness is OK
But can consume a lot of time and money on stuff that doesn't work
You just have to have the perseverance to get to the other side.

 

[Matthew Jeschke]

BTW, Happy Easter.

Sidetrack story......Don't worry, you be done one day.

I don't say mad scientist in a bad way....
I'm kind of one myself and hit and miss because R&D is painful.

Like in my quest to get to 200mph in the 1/2 mile I decided to go lighter and ditch my 3700lb GTR.
I thought I'd outsmart em with physics. Lighter car, big power go faster.
So I bought the 1800lb palatov.

First outing was 150mph with Stock LS3....full cats, Oem manifolds.
But the ET beats everyone to the flag.....but trap speed wins.
So I upgraded to Giant TSP CNC Max ported heads with LS7 exhaust ports and the biggest cam they had.
Made for 5000-7000rpms
Had the stock LS3 Manifold, because its good. MSD doesn't even make an LS3 manifold because there's no gains.
The tuner said the engine was suffocating because the big heads were trying to suck too much air through my LS3 intake.
He said to upgrade to Holley HighRam, But I didn't want to do that becuase they are aluminum and absorb heat, heatsoak, pulls timing, go slower.
So with those heads and cam and CUSTOM headers, cuz its a palatov and no one makes headers for that...it ran 165-168mph
Aside from head winds its very consistent on speed because its NA. So $8K to get 18mph.

Here's the real mad scientist part.
Researched for months and months for a bigger manifold. Found some...MAST and some others but most top mount Throttle bodies and dreaded aluminum.
Then FAST release their HIGHRISE composite manifold...front feed for LS engines. O I could do that.....famous last thought
Got a FAST HR, had NO idea if it would even fit.
Well it DID NOT. It was too high and too close to everything.
So I flipped around BACKWARDs. Then it barely fit. 1/2 inch from front radiator piping in front
But barely room in rear for throttle body and MAF....HAHA that had to go away which meant Speed Density tune....OMG what is that?
I spent a month buying extension harness and sensor adaptors and fittings and half was wrong but eventually I got it all together, BACKWARDS
NO air cleaner.....bought a Turbo Guard and put it over the throttle body with an HKS round air element.
So it all worked out after a lot of trial and error.
Now it runs 180-182mph and could now needs more fuel lol ....maybe E85 and bigger injectors.

With LS3 Manifold front facing under the radiator pipes, stock cats and mufflers
View attachment 275178


After FAST HR.....check out my turbo/HKS Air cleaner
And close I am to the front piping and rear frame member....LOL

View attachment 275180
View attachment 275179


So madness is OK
But can consume a lot of time and money on stuff that doesn't work
You just have to have the perseverance to get to the other side.

View attachment 275181

Drooling. In college I was member of our FSAE team... And def right is hard to beat years of production expierience and R&D from manufacturers. I want try but for sure these lifters are probably splitting hairs.

Love your setup! That probably hits like a freight train when you get on the gas? Iron or aluminum block?

GM did a killer awesome job on the 99% of these motors. The bottom end is stupid strong and they breath insanely well. The intakes are damn near perfect.

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[iamdub]

WOW torqueing down all rocker arms made a considerable difference. My zero lash distance tightened up. I measured on 3 valves and compared to previous measurements. Then stopped...

I notice my Chinese knockoff adjustable pushrod is complete garbage. I've been setting it to a specific length, taping it together, and checking it in between measurements. Even then the stupid thing varies in length. The threads on it are loosey goosey.

Curious what adjustable pushrods are good? I like this design with a locking nut but clearance would be an issue with those and the pushrod guide on head and I'm not sure what would fit.

For now I'm going to put thread locker on this pushrod AND tape it and see if that helps.

I never even looked for any knock-offs. Didn't know they existed. The Comp one is only $22: https://www.amazon.com/Competition-Cams-Hi-Tech-Pushrod-Checker/dp/B00062YEPY