Frustrating Camber Issues

[cfmistry]

So after doing a 3/4" Belltech drop kit I had the truck aligned. Even with the 2* camber bushings pressed into the UCAs, I can't get any better than -1.5* of camber (on each side). That's not even in the normal range. On top of that the caster is WAY off, like 7*, but I don't care about that too much. Toe aligns correctly (thankfully) so tire wear shouldn't be too bad.

Do you guys a camber of -1.5* is going to cause any major issues? I'm kind of fed up and don't want to throw more money into this project. For a 3/4" drop this is causing me a lot of hell. And all my control arms are new BTW (nothing bent)!

Thanks,
Cyrus

 

[OR VietVet]

https://www.rockauto.com/en/moreinfo.php?pk=11187257&cc=1433255&jsn=1865&jsn=1865

Is this the design?

Did you try the adjustable upper ball joints?

 

[cfmistry]

https://www.rockauto.com/en/moreinfo.php?pk=11187257&cc=1433255&jsn=1865&jsn=1865

Is this the design?

Did you try the adjustable upper ball joints?

I don't know if they make those for NNBS? Actually my upper arms are MOOGs with Belltech offset bushings pushed in...

https://www.belltech.com/belltech-9...c1500-2wd-4wd-front-camber-bushings-4955.html

 

[OR VietVet]

https://www.rockauto.com/en/moreinfo.php?pk=11187261&cc=1433255&jsn=1866

I am seeing an offset ball joint in this pic from RA but not in the other pic I already posted the link for from RA.

These Moog arms show a good pic of the offset ball joint if you can just get the ball joint only. Call RA for help.

https://www.rockauto.com/en/moreinfo.php?pk=7612636&cc=1433255&jsn=1921

 

[kbuskill]

So after doing a 3/4" Belltech drop kit I had the truck aligned. Even with the 2* camber bushings pressed into the UCAs, I can't get any better than -1.5* of camber (on each side). That's not even in the normal range. On top of that the caster is WAY off, like 7*, but I don't care about that too much. Toe aligns correctly (thankfully) so tire wear shouldn't be too bad.

Do you guys a camber of -1.5* is going to cause any major issues? I'm kind of fed up and don't want to throw more money into this project. For a 3/4" drop this is causing me a lot of hell. And all my control arms are new BTW (nothing bent)!

Thanks,
Cyrus

-1.5° camber will eat the inside of the tires. Alignment specs call for 0°- 0.5° negative camber.

Not sure which drop kit you have. Did it come with drop spindles?

The 2° bushings aren't needed if you are using drop spindles.

My 4/6 dropped Burb aligns perfectly with just the 1° camber plates.

My guess is the bushings weren't installed in the correct orientation.

 

[cfmistry]

I do not have spindles. This is via "drop struts" entirely in the front and 4" drop coils in the rear. All Belltech stuff, from a kit (738SP) that includes the eccentric camber bushings.

I had the shop send me a pic of the bushings before install, and they are correct. You can verify that below.

Below is my latest alignment printout. The guy at the shop said that negative camber doesn't wear tires much -- toe is more responsible for that. Not sure on that? Regardless, that much red on my printout doesn't sit well with me.

Cyrus

View attachment 267749
View attachment 267750

 

[OR VietVet]

The alignment guy is mistaken and should not be saying that. He is saying that because he went as far as he could with adjustments and wants the rig off the alignment rack.

Too much negative and positive camber WILL wear tires, period. So can too much toe in and toe out. That is alignments 101.

 

[kbuskill]

I do not have spindles. This is via "drop struts" entirely in the front and 4" drop coils in the rear. All Belltech stuff, from a kit (738SP) that includes the eccentric camber bushings.

I had the shop send me a pic of the bushings before install, and they are correct. You can verify that below.

Below is my latest alignment printout. The guy at the shop said that negative camber doesn't wear tires much -- toe is more responsible for that. Not sure on that? Regardless, that much red on my printout doesn't sit well with me.

Cyrus
View attachment 267751
View attachment 267752
View attachment 267749
View attachment 267750

I'm not sure what to tell you.

I am curious how you get 3" of drop out of 2" drop struts?

The Belltech struts are good for 2" of drop with no rings installed. So to get 3" you would need shorter springs or a dropped spring perch to get the other inch. Or I suppose you could mount the struts below the lower control arms, with grade 9 hardware, and then set the struts for a 1" drop.

My truck had 2" spindles and I had the drop struts set at 2" of drop, zero rings on the struts, and I only have the 1° camber plates.

If you take out my drop spindles then I would have effectively had a 2" strut drop and the 1° camber plates had plenty of adjustment.

I would perhaps take it to a different alignment shop and see what they say.

 

[cfmistry]

The alignment guy is mistaken and should not be saying that. He is saying that because he went as far as he could with adjustments and wants the rig off the alignment rack.

Too much negative and positive camber WILL wear tires, period. So can too much toe in and toe out. That is alignments 101.

Thank you for clarifying. He seemed like a knowledgeable and trustworthy guy so I made the mistake of believing him! He actually told me that well before the truck went on the rack... I think he was trying to say that most people blame camber when in actuality excessive toe is worse on tires. Could that be true? Anyways from my knowledge of other cars (mostly sportscars) it seems that -1.5* is not too crazy.

I'm not sure what to tell you.

I am curious how you get 3" of drop out of 2" drop struts?

The Belltech struts are good for 2" of drop with no rings installed. So to get 3" you would need shorter springs or a dropped spring perch to get the other inch. Or I suppose you could mount the struts below the lower control arms, with grade 9 hardware, and then set the struts for a 1" drop.

My truck had 2" spindles and I had the drop struts set at 2" of drop, zero rings on the struts, and I only have the 1° camber plates.

If you take out my drop spindles then I would have effectively had a 2" strut drop and the 1° camber plates had plenty of adjustment.

I would perhaps take it to a different alignment shop and see what they say.

Belltech's site does state they are a 2" drop but their newest instructions state it is a 3" drop for the NNBS. I emailed them and they confirmed. I used 0 rings and sure enough it dropped it 2-15/16". Maybe they changed their design recently?

I am aware the spindles keep the geometry more similar to alignment is easier, but I needed new shocks so I tried to kill 2 birds with one stone.

The camber plates are the ones you need to cut the upper control arm mounts for correct? Seems like a ton of work I don't want to do. Ugh.

Thanks to both of you guys for helping me! Much appreciated.

 

[OR VietVet]

The toe out or in, depending on the amount, can wear the tire quicker because the tire is pointed wrong and will scruff the tread of quick. A camber problem is leaned wrong and puts more weight on that particular area and will typically take longer to show the wear.

 

[kbuskill]

Thank you for clarifying. He seemed like a knowledgeable and trustworthy guy so I made the mistake of believing him! He actually told me that well before the truck went on the rack... I think he was trying to say that most people blame camber when in actuality excessive toe is worse on tires. Could that be true? Anyways from my knowledge of other cars (mostly sportscars) it seems that -1.5* is not too crazy.



Belltech's site does state they are a 2" drop but their newest instructions state it is a 3" drop for the NNBS. I emailed them and they confirmed. I used 0 rings and sure enough it dropped it 2-15/16". Maybe they changed their design recently?

I am aware the spindles keep the geometry more similar to alignment is easier, but I needed new shocks so I tried to kill 2 birds with one stone.

The camber plates are the ones you need to cut the upper control arm mounts for correct? Seems like a ton of work I don't want to do. Ugh.

Thanks to both of you guys for helping me! Much appreciated.

That is weird about the newer instructions saying 3"... can you post a link?

I believe you, I'm just curious about it.

And yes, the camber plates require elongating the holes in the frame mounts.

*** EDIT***

I just went and downloaded Belltech's install instructions for the drop struts.

Evidently Belltech came out with a "new" drop strut.

Part number 25004 is their 3" drop struts.

I had their old part number 25003, 2" drop strut.

 

[cfmistry]

That is weird about the newer instructions saying 3"... can you post a link?

I believe you, I'm just curious about it.

And yes, the camber plates require elongating the holes in the frame mounts.

*** EDIT***

I just went and downloaded Belltech's install instructions for the drop struts.

Evidently Belltech came out with a "new" drop strut.

Part number 25004 is their 3" drop struts.

I had their old part number 25003, 2" drop strut.

Yup that is correct I have the 25004s. They seem like a good piece of equipment, then ride well even with very little travel. But I do wonder if 3" of a strut drop really messes with the suspension geometry -- most people only do 2" via struts.

 

[iamdub]

The other guys pretty well have you lined out, but I'll toss my hat into the ring:

Mine is dropped with spindles (1.75" actual drop) and Belltech struts with no rings (also 1.75" actual drop) for a net 3.5" drop. I used the Belltech alignment cams and mine aligned with room to spare. I aligned it myself with a digital angle finder and string. It doesn't pull, the steering feels like it always did before the drop and the tires are (now) wearing smooth and evenly. The passenger side is wearing perfectly. I did have about 1° of negative camber on the driver side that I was too lazy to correct and didn't care because I barely drive it. A year and about 5,000 miles later, I had noticeable inside shoulder wear. Not terrible, just noticeable, and that was after only 5K miles. I fixed it before a trip to Florida for this past Thanksgiving. So, your 1.5° absolutely IS a concern.

Your 3" strut drop is news to me. I had an idea to get that .5" of drop that I'm missing, but I may just swap in the newer BT struts now that I know about them.

As for your alignment issue, maybe that 3" drop exceeds the adjustment capabilities of the factory eccentrics, even with the help of those bushings. You can either (A) get spindles and add rings to make the struts a 1" drop then you'll only need to align for that 1" since the 2" (or thereabouts) from the spindles isn't "seen" or (B) install the BT alignment cams. If you're interested, here's my install of those cams. I'm afraid that even the cams won't allow enough adjustment, though. If they yield as advertised, then you'll get an additional degree and will be at .5° negative, which is the max allowable.

If I were you, I'd find some spindles and trade my 3" struts to a forum member for his 2" struts. I happen to know a guy...

 

[kbuskill]

The other guys pretty well have you lined out, but I'll toss my hat into the ring:

Mine is dropped with spindles (1.75" actual drop) and Belltech struts with no rings (also 1.75" actual drop) for a net 3.5" drop. I used the Belltech alignment cams and mine aligned with room to spare. I aligned it myself with a digital angle finder and string. It doesn't pull, the steering feels like it always did before the drop and the tires are (now) wearing smooth and evenly. The passenger side is wearing perfectly. I did have about 1° of negative camber on the driver side that I was too lazy to correct and didn't care because I barely drive it. A year and about 5,000 miles later, I had noticeable inside shoulder wear. Not terrible, just noticeable, and that was after only 5K miles. I fixed it before a trip to Florida for this past Thanksgiving. So, your 1.5° absolutely IS a concern.

Your 3" strut drop is news to me. I had an idea to get that .5" of drop that I'm missing, but I may just swap in the newer BT struts now that I know about them.

As for your alignment issue, maybe that 3" drop exceeds the adjustment capabilities of the factory eccentrics, even with the help of those bushings. You can either (A) get spindles and add rings to make the struts a 1" drop then you'll only need to align for that 1" since the 2" (or thereabouts) from the spindles isn't "seen" or (B) install the BT alignment cams. If you're interested, here's my install of those cams. I'm afraid that even the cams won't allow enough adjustment, though. If they yield as advertised, then you'll get an additional degree and will be at .5° negative, which is the max allowable.

If I were you, I'd find some spindles and trade my 3" struts to a forum member for his 2" struts. I happen to know a guy...

The installation instructions for the new 3" struts say...

Not sure if that 2" is a typo and suppose to be 3" or not. If not 3" would probably require both plates and bushings.

 

[iamdub]

The installation instructions for the new 3" struts say...
View attachment 267778

Not sure if that 2" is a typo and suppose to be 3" or not. If not 3" would probably require both plates and bushings.

If that's the original instructions for the 2" struts, then that answers it. If some vehicles won't align at a 2" strut drop and need extra parts, then they'll surely need them for a 3" drop. I guess we got lucky with ours. Really, I can't say I've ever known a GM truck to take kindly to a 3" spring drop, which essentially is what this is.

 

[kbuskill]

If that's the original instructions for the 2" struts, then that answers it. If some vehicles won't align at a 2" strut drop and need extra parts, then they'll surely need them for a 3" drop. I guess we got lucky with ours. Really, I can't say I've ever known a GM truck to take kindly to a 3" spring drop, which essentially is what this is.

Yeah, it could be that they just swapped over that section from their old instructions for the 2" to the 3" instructions.

 

[cfmistry]

PNW VietVet, kbuskill, and iamdub I really appreciate the thought you guys put in to to help me. It seems that with all the issues (liner rubbing, poor alignment, UCA balljoint angles suck), the drop just isn't worth it (to me). I'm going to raise it back up to 2/3" drop when the weather gets better and have it re-aligned. Should work just fine!

Cyrus

 

[Joseph Garcia]

PNW VietVet, kbuskill, and iamdub I really appreciate the thought you guys put in to to help me. It seems that with all the issues (liner rubbing, poor alignment, UCA balljoint angles suck), the drop just isn't worth it (to me). I'm going to raise it back up to 2/3" drop when the weather gets better and have it re-aligned. Should work just fine!

Cyrus

Not all of our projects turn out the way that we want them to, and sometimes a tactical retreat is the best long term path forward. Frustrating, of course, as we all hate to admit failure.

 

[cfmistry]

Not all of our projects turn out the way that we want them to, and sometimes a tactical retreat is the best long term path forward. Frustrating, of course, as we all hate to admit failure.

Couldn't agree more! Glad I have the easy option to go back up an inch!

 

[kbuskill]

Couldn't agree more! Glad I have the easy option to go back up an inch!

If you don't want to go to the trouble of swapping struts with @iamdub OR removing the springs to add rings to the struts you could always grab a 1/2" strut spacer for the top OR bottom of the strut and gain your 1" lift back.

Top spacer...

Bottom spacer...

They are much easier and faster to install.