Help me identify if this is an exhaust leak...

[thefrey]

Please help me rule out if this is an exhaust leak or not...

This is driving me nuts. I do not have enough confidence to diagnose it myself. I have tried to use a long screwdriver but I can't seem to pinpoint it. I have tried to upload a similar thread, but maybe I wasn't asking the right question. And I think this is better audio from the videos.

When I took this video... I heard the tick on cold start... then it went away for a little bit, and then any throttle made the tick start again. It usually ticks when warm.

Every video I watch that has a similar noise, it's 50/50 if people say it's an exhaust leak or lifter tick (or valve train related).

I would just like an honest opinion from those who are smarter than I. Maybe it will help me become more sane lol. Or at least get pointed in the right direction.

TIA

 

[tom3]

Get a length of hose, garden hose is fine. Put one end up to your ear and use the other end as a microphone (stethescope) and you can pinpoint the leak. Could be a spark plug too.

 

[rdezs]

Don't berate yourself because you can't be sure what the sound is..... Sound is very subjective, especially when listening over the internet.

My thoughts: through the wheel well, I hear a solid mechanical noise in sync with camshaft rotation.

From up above, clearly sounds like valve train noise. Could be lifter, push rod with too much slop.

And that would correspond with the sound of the wheel well, of the lifter bouncing around on the cam lobe

But that's what I hear over the internet. Check the obvious first: Look for missing exhaust manifold bolts where it mounts to the head. Those also can mimic a mechanical sound.

Also, without burning yourself..... Carefully feel under and behind the exhaust manifold for any exhaust blowing. Twice over the past 40 years that's been the answer. One was a cracked manifold, the other blew out the manifold gasket to the head on the bottom side. Could definitely feel both blowing.

Next up is pull the valve cover. Rotate the engine over by hand using the crankshaft bolt, checking for a rocker with obvious excessive clearance. (Check both sides, sound travels in funny ways) if you find one with excessive slop, you could be looking at the trillion bearings that the rocker rides on, or more frequently a collapsed lifter.

Really can't be sure which one it is.... But 96.3% sure it's one of those options.

Ditto on the garden hose suggestion. Stick one in right down on the valley cover. If it's a lifter, it will sound like it's right under the valley cover when you listen.

Questions:
1: how many miles on the engine?
2: changing oil before 5,000 mi or following the display on the dash?
3: oil pressure? (Always advised to measure with a manual pressure gauge to verify the instrument cluster)

 

[SpareParts]

Sounds like my old engine. Mine would make that noise cold but go away when up to temp. I believe mine is a piston slapping because the coating has worn off or it is scuffed.
Until you find what it actually is we are all guessing.

 

[Joseph Garcia]

It does not sound like an exhaust manifold gasket leak to me, and the noise associated with exhaust manifold leaks typically go away (but not always) when the motor reaches operating temperature.

My guess is that your issue is the top end, as @rdezs discusses above. IMO, you are going to need to remove both valve covers and check out the clearances, to identify if any one of them has more play than the others.

Does the sound change when you change the oil?

 

[thefrey]

Don't berate yourself because you can't be sure what the sound is.....

My panic is that I feel like this is in some ways a ticking time bomb... I don't know if the cam lobe is getting chewed up and sending metal everywhere and eating my rod bearings. I'd rather not get a visit from Uncle Rodney in the near future lol

Next up is pull the valve cover. Rotate the engine over by hand using the crankshaft bolt, checking for a rocker with obvious excessive clearance. (Check both sides, sound travels in funny ways) if you find one with excessive slop, you could be looking at the trillion bearings that the rocker rides on, or more frequently a collapsed lifter.

I know that it is not a collapsed lifter, unless partially collapsed is a thing. I am not having any misfires or CELs.

Questions:
1: how many miles on the engine?

Coming up on 213k. Secondary worry is that an AFM delete is not worth it at this point.

2: changing oil before 5,000 mi or following the display on the dash?

Doing my best to do oil changes at or before 5k. Now the last owners... I suspect did not do that.

3: oil pressure? (Always advised to measure with a manual pressure gauge to verify the instrument cluster)

40+ cold start, 30+ cruising, 15-20 hot idle. I don't have a manual gauge, but I know my oil pressure went up when I cut my VLOM gaskets when I had a lifter collapse. So that's a plus.

Thanks for the reply. Some good info here.

When my lifter collapsed, I checked my rockers and they did not seem to have much slop. I think checking them again would be a good idea.

Would a hydraulic lifter that doesn't pump up chew the cam or just cause drivetrain slop? Would the fix (other than new lifters) perhaps be a longer pushrod?

 

[thefrey]

Sounds like my old engine. Mine would make that noise cold but go away when up to temp. I believe mine is a piston slapping because the coating has worn off or it is scuffed.

Old engine as in you replaced the engine, or old as in just old n tired?

Until you find what it actually is we are all guessing.

Wait a minute... you are telling me that ya'll aren't a magic 8 ball and can't tell me exactly what I need to hear?

 

[thefrey]

It does not sound like an exhaust manifold gasket leak to me, and the noise associated with exhaust manifold leaks typically go away (but not always) when the motor reaches operating temperature.

My guess is that your issue is the top end, as @rdezs discusses above. IMO, you are going to need to remove both valve covers and check out the clearances, to identify if any one of them has more play than the others.

Does the sound change when you change the oil?

Any tips to check clearances? I will do some Dr. Google searching here soon...

To my knowledge, the rockers can't be adjusted because of the hydraulic lifters, correct? Then perhaps solution would be longer pushrod?


The sound miiiight change when I change the oil. Not 100% sure. I went down this rabbit hole a bit ago when I was using Valvoline R&P, then switched to Quaker State b/c of the higher Kv100 and viscosity values. I think the new oil that the shop put it might be full synth. Pennzoil which I don't know how I feel about.

 

[thefrey]

Get a length of hose, garden hose is fine. Put one end up to your ear and use the other end as a microphone (stethescope) and you can pinpoint the leak. Could be a spark plug too.

Funny enough... I don't think I own a hose. Might just pick up a mechanics stethoscope at HF for 8 bucks.

 

[Joseph Garcia]

Any tips to check clearances? I will do some Dr. Google searching here soon...

To my knowledge, the rockers can't be adjusted because of the hydraulic lifters, correct? Then perhaps solution would be longer pushrod?


The sound miiiight change when I change the oil. Not 100% sure. I went down this rabbit hole a bit ago when I was using Valvoline R&P, then switched to Quaker State b/c of the higher Kv100 and viscosity values. I think the new oil that the shop put it might be full synth. Pennzoil which I don't know how I feel about.

Well, you need to confirm if fresh oil changes the sound in any way, the versus old oil. Did the oil brand change make any noticeable difference in the sound?

You are correct in that hydraulic lifters do not have clearance adjustments, so when you physically check them out after removing the valve covers is to look for one or more that are 'different' than the rest, a little more play or more rocker arm wiggle, or one that does not become fully firm when rotating the crank shaft.

@OR VietVet can give you some pointers on specifically what to do, and what to look for, after you get the valve covers off and are ready to inspect.

 

[thefrey]

Well, you need to confirm if fresh oil changes the sound in any way, the versus old oil. Did the oil brand change make any noticeable difference in the sound?

You are correct in that hydraulic lifters do not have clearance adjustments, so when you physically check them out after removing the valve covers is to look for one or more that are 'different' than the rest, a little more play or more rocker arm wiggle, or one that does not become fully firm when rotating the crank shaft.

@OR VietVet can give you some pointers on specifically what to do, and what to look for, after you get the valve covers off and are ready to inspect.

It seems like the Pennzoil makes the noise more apparent. I checked the KV100 and Viscosity values and that would check out, as it's a thinner oil compared to the other stuff I've used.

I know I used Mobil 1 at one point when I first got the truck, and that seemed to make things worse.

I think next oil change I'm going back to Quaker IMO based on the viscosity data they have on their oil.

Not sure if a ATF flush would help a possible gunked up lifter. But I don't think I like the idea of doing an ATF flush...

 

[rdezs]

If you have excessive play at The rocker, and the trunnion bearings are good that the rocker rides on, you're probably looking at a collapsed lifter. And no, put it in a longer push rod isn't the answer. You'll need to pull the head to get to the offending lifter. But I hear you're predicament, at that mileage.... Going down the rabbit hole at that mileage, I think the best wisdom would say you're probably going to want to do a complete rebuild. And that really depends on the rest of the vehicle, as to if it's worth it.... The bottom line usually comes down to it you do the work yourself. Shop rates make it cost prohibitive compared to the value of the vehicle.

 

[Joseph Garcia]

It seems like the Pennzoil makes the noise more apparent. I checked the KV100 and Viscosity values and that would check out, as it's a thinner oil compared to the other stuff I've used.

I know I used Mobil 1 at one point when I first got the truck, and that seemed to make things worse.

I think next oil change I'm going back to Quaker IMO based on the viscosity data they have on their oil.

Not sure if a ATF flush would help a possible gunked up lifter. But I don't think I like the idea of doing an ATF flush...

While I have not personally used this product, other folks on this Forum have used it with good results. SeaFoam Oil treatment. It would be worth a try to see if it frees up something that can then be removed at the oil change. Doesn't cost much to try it out.

Dr. Google says:

Sea Foam works in oil as a cleaning agent to liquefy residues and sludge, but it should only be used temporarily before an oil change. Add it to the crankcase at a rate of 1 ounce per quart of oil, and drive for 100-300 miles to allow the engine to clean itself before draining the old oil and replacing it with a fresh change.

How to use Sea Foam in oil

• Add it to the oil:
  Pour the recommended amount (1 oz. per quart of oil) into the crankcase through the oil filler opening. Do not exceed this ratio.
  
  
• Drive the vehicle:
  Drive the vehicle for 100-300 miles with the Sea Foam in the oil. This gives it time to work through the engine to liquefy harmful residues.
  
  
• Change the oil and filter:
  After the driving period, immediately change the oil and filter to drain the loosened deposits and sludge from the engine.
  
  
• Monitor oil clarity:
  Check your oil regularly for clarity. If it becomes dirty before the 100-300 mile mark, change the oil and filter sooner.

 

[thefrey]

If you have excessive play at The rocker, and the trunnion bearings are good that the rocker rides on, you're probably looking at a collapsed lifter. And no, put it in a longer push rod isn't the answer. You'll need to pull the head to get to the offending lifter. But I hear you're predicament, at that mileage.... Going down the rabbit hole at that mileage, I think the best wisdom would say you're probably going to want to do a complete rebuild. And that really depends on the rest of the vehicle, as to if it's worth it.... The bottom line usually comes down to it you do the work yourself. Shop rates make it cost prohibitive compared to the value of the vehicle.

Can you have a collapsed lifter without it misfiring?

I think the thing is that it might be a bad lifter in general. Could head gasket thickness affect valve train slack? The last owner said they did new OEM lifters... who knows if they actually did.


You've gotten to my existential crisis for this truck. I live in an apartment, so a full rebuild doing it myself, well probably isn't on the table as much as I want it to be... For a truck that's worth maybe 6k tops given the condition, I need new brakes, looking at DOD delete (and then every "while you're in there" thing... timing chain, oil pump, etc), then torque converter is on the horizon, and then whatever else is inbetween... and then I would like to repair the rust but that’s just cosmetic. Don't know at this point if I should just sell it while it's running or not lol.

 

[j91z28d1]

Funny enough... I don't think I own a hose. Might just pick up a mechanics stethoscope at HF for 8 bucks.

the stethoscope with the end pulled off and open hose is the best way I've found to find exhaust leaks. super small. ones you'd never know about will make a distinct puff puff sound. the hose is silicone and doesn't melt. so you can drag it around every place that has a connection. Just watch your hands getting burnt

 

[thefrey]

While I have not personally used this product, other folks on this Forum have used it with good results. SeaFoam Oil treatment. It would be worth a try to see if it frees up something that can then be removed at the oil change. Doesn't cost much to try it out.

Dr. Google says:

Sea Foam works in oil as a cleaning agent to liquefy residues and sludge, but it should only be used temporarily before an oil change. Add it to the crankcase at a rate of 1 ounce per quart of oil, and drive for 100-300 miles to allow the engine to clean itself before draining the old oil and replacing it with a fresh change.

How to use Sea Foam in oil

• Add it to the oil:
  Pour the recommended amount (1 oz. per quart of oil) into the crankcase through the oil filler opening. Do not exceed this ratio.
  
  
• Drive the vehicle:
  Drive the vehicle for 100-300 miles with the Sea Foam in the oil. This gives it time to work through the engine to liquefy harmful residues.
  
  
• Change the oil and filter:
  After the driving period, immediately change the oil and filter to drain the loosened deposits and sludge from the engine.
  
  
• Monitor oil clarity:
  Check your oil regularly for clarity. If it becomes dirty before the 100-300 mile mark, change the oil and filter sooner.

I am assuming that marvel mystery oil or liqui moly hydraulic lifter additive all do the same thing? Not sure if one or the others is better.

 

[j91z28d1]

the 2nd video would worry me too.

 

[donjetman]

Any tips to check clearances? I will do some Dr. Google searching here soon...

To my knowledge, the rockers can't be adjusted because of the hydraulic lifters, correct? Then perhaps solution would be longer pushrod?


The sound miiiight change when I change the oil. Not 100% sure. I went down this rabbit hole a bit ago when I was using Valvoline R&P, then switched to Quaker State b/c of the higher Kv100 and viscosity values. I think the new oil that the shop put it might be full synth. Pennzoil which I don't know how I feel about.

Sounds like valvetrain noise
Preload on lifters is adjusted with "PUSHROD LENGTH"
Ideally you want 3/4 to 1 1/4 turn between zero lash and reaching full torque spec (22 ft#s)
Here's some videos:

and

and

 

[Joseph Garcia]

I am assuming that marvel mystery oil or liqui moly hydraulic lifter additive all do the same thing? Not sure if one or the others is better.

Not sure, either. Seafoam is the one that I see here on this Forum, as its use is for cleaning (200-300 miles and then change the oil), and not more lubrication properties.

 

[alvocado]

The way I locate exhaust leaks is by attaching a shopvac to the exhaust tail pipe with the vac hose on the outlet. Tape around the hose to keep it secure to the tail pipe.

Turn on the vac blowing air into the exhaust and use a soapy solution under the hood to hit the manifold on all sides, the downpipe flange, etc. If there's a leak, you will get suds immediately. Works every time.