Electric Suburban / Electric Tahoe / Yukon / Escalade EV

[Quark]

Petroleum has a diverse supply though only 3 producers with China dominating control more than 80% of the world's supply of “energy transition minerals,” or ETMs which could increase our risk of conflict should China ever try to leverage us over Taiwan or other territorial conflicts. You brought up wars how does this factor into your thinking?

I thought you might want to counter the assertion that mining is much more destructive to the planet than oil and gas extraction. It will require a global mining boom in countries with poor governance scores with corruption and poor human rights. These mining operations require a lot of water and areas where these minerals are found are in short supply. It will leave behind contamination from acid and contamination.

Valid arguments require us to question why government wants us to go this direction. And that's what I do, question rather than blindly accept the media's agenda.

 

[cardude2000]

Petroleum has a diverse supply though only 3 producers with China dominating control more than 80% of the world's supply of “energy transition minerals,” or ETMs which could increase our risk of conflict should China ever try to leverage us over Taiwan or other territorial conflicts. You brought up wars how does this factor into your thinking?

I thought you might want to counter the assertion that mining is much more destructive to the planet than oil and gas extraction. It will require a global mining boom in countries with poor governance scores with corruption and poor human rights. These mining operations require a lot of water and areas where these minerals are found are in short supply. It will leave behind contamination from acid and contamination.

Valid arguments require us to question why government wants us to go this direction. And that's what I do, question rather than blindly accept the media's agenda.

Yep. The switch over to renewables is not without its short term issues. I’ve acknowledged that wholly and “countered” that mining a largely recyclable resource is exponentially more appealing to me than drilling in more and more sensitive area to extract a finite non renewable/recyclable resource. The issues with mining are not insurmountable nor are they “forever” issues like relying on a finite resource like petroleum does.

And you’re using the “current situation” vs future state fallacy in regard to minerals. Same fallacy some use when saying “the grid can’t handle 100% EV’s!”. CURRENTLY China controls 80% of the minerals but only controls 35% of the available reserves. COULD that lead to future conflict? Sure. But should a chance we’ll have future conflicts be keeping us from transitioning to more renewable power? Nah. Not IMO.

As for media, I don’t listen to talk radio or entertainment news so unfortunately I can’t help there. I have no idea what the narrative is.

Curious, what your solution to the finite resource issue? Wait until petroleum is so incredibly costly that companies switch to renewables without any govt investment to jump start the technology?

 

[Quark]

Yep. The switch over to renewables is not without its short term issues. I’ve acknowledged that wholly and “countered” that mining a largely recyclable resource is exponentially more appealing to me than drilling in more and more sensitive area to extract a finite non renewable/recyclable resource. The issues with mining are not insurmountable nor are they “forever” issues like relying on a finite resource like petroleum does.

And you’re using the “current situation” vs future state fallacy in regard to minerals. Same fallacy some use when saying “the grid can’t handle 100% EV’s!”. CURRENTLY China controls 80% of the minerals but only controls 35% of the available reserves. COULD that lead to future conflict? Sure. But should a chance we’ll have future conflicts be keeping us from transitioning to more renewable power? Nah. Not IMO.

As for media, I don’t listen to talk radio or entertainment news so unfortunately I can’t help there. I have no idea what the narrative is.

Curious, what your solution to the finite resource issue? Wait until petroleum is so incredibly costly that companies switch to renewables without any govt investment to jump start the technology?

Everything is finite. Are you saying rare earth metals aren't finite? And water supplies once they're gone they ain't coming back. Is it easier knowing it isn't in your back yard?

 

[cardude2000]

Everything is finite. Are you saying rare earth metals aren't finite? And water supplies once they're gone they ain't coming back. Is it easier knowing it isn't in your back yard?

Wind, hydro and sun arent finite and many materials are reusable.

Petroleum is 100% one and done.

Furthermore the US sits on one of the largest rare earth mineral reserves on the planet so it’s very literally in our own backyard.

You STILL won’t answer a single question.

 

[Quark]

Wind, hydro and sun arent finite and many materials are reusable.

Petroleum is 100% one and done.

Furthermore the US sits on one of the largest rare earth mineral reserves on the planet so it’s very literally in our own backyard.

You STILL won’t answer a single question.

Sorry but I believe you are wrong again North America has only one lithium mine while we have a vast supply of oil. But really we are lucky not to have those mines in our backyard. Lithium is extracted from brine that is evaporated leaving behind many hazardous byproducts. As it stands much of the lithium comes from countries with governments that put little value on civil rights or environmental standards such as we enjoy. So, once again aren't you glad it isn't in your backyard?

 

[cardude2000]

Sorry but I believe you are wrong again North America has only one lithium mine while we have a vast supply of oil. But really we are lucky not to have those mines in our backyard. Lithium is extracted from brine that is evaporated leaving behind many hazardous byproducts. As it stands much of the lithium comes from countries with governments that put little value on civil rights or environmental standards such as we enjoy. So, once again aren't you glad it isn't in your backyard?

Again with the current vs future state fallacy. REE’s are everywhere and aren’t particularly “rare”. This is a production issue not a supply issue. As for domestic production, I’d gladly swap some fracking and offshore oil production for mining operations that produce largely reusable resources.

https://web.mit.edu/12.000/www/m2016/finalwebsite/solutions/deposits.html

As much as it’s enjoyable to dismantle every claim you throw at the wall it’s tiring.

Why won’t YOU ever answer even a single question?

 

[Quark]

Again with the current vs future state fallacy. REE’s are everywhere and aren’t particularly “rare”. This is a production issue not a supply issue. As for domestic production, I’d gladly swap some fracking and offshore oil production for mining operations that produce largely reusable resources.

https://web.mit.edu/12.000/www/m2016/finalwebsite/solutions/deposits.html

As much as it’s enjoyable to dismantle every claim you throw at the wall it’s tiring.

Why won’t YOU ever answer even a single question?

Beg to differ but production is usually the bottle neck to supply so they are basically one and the same.

Another mineral used in lithium ion batteries is graphite. Up to 30 times more than lithium content and the US has zero production. Guess who does, China is a major exporter of graphite. What happens when our transportation system is dependent on China supplying multiple basic elements, they tell us to back off Taiwan or they'll cripple our whole economic system worse than Covid did. In this geopolitical environment independence is good dependence bad.

 

[cardude2000]

Beg to differ but production is usually the bottle neck to supply so they are basically one and the same.

Another mineral used in lithium ion batteries is graphite. Up to 30 times more than lithium content and the US has zero production. Guess who does, China is a major exporter of graphite. What happens when our transportation system is dependent on China supplying multiple basic elements, they tell us to back off Taiwan or they'll cripple our whole economic system worse than Covid did. In this geopolitical environment independence is good dependence bad.

AGAIN with current vs future. Just because China is CURRENTLY the leader doesnt mean it always was or will be. The US used to be a leader in many of those minerals (supply and production). We shifted away from them and thankfully we’re making moves to get back into it (article attached).

And I completely agree re: dependance but being dependent on a finite completely NON REUSABLE resource is not a long term strategy.

So again, you are vehemently against EV’s and it appears, renewables...so what are your ideas for long term stability...drill baby drill?

https://www.cnbc.com/amp/2021/04/17...al-chinas-dominance-in-rare-earth-metals.html

 

[Quark]

AGAIN with current vs future. Just because China is CURRENTLY the leader doesnt mean it always was or will be. The US used to be a leader in many of those minerals (supply and production). We shifted away from them and thankfully we’re making moves to get back into it (article attached).

And I completely agree re: dependance but being dependent on a finite completely NON REUSABLE resource is not a long term strategy.

So again, you are vehemently against EV’s and it appears, renewables...so what are your ideas for long term stability...drill baby drill?

https://www.cnbc.com/amp/2021/04/17...al-chinas-dominance-in-rare-earth-metals.html

You are ignoring the reason why we aren't mining, our laws limiting what we can and can't do to our environment not to mention health and safety. Are you aware that graphite mining is as hazardous as coal mining? Think of the poor people who will be putting their health at risk so that the upper 20% can enjoy feeling good about themselves while getting a carbon tax credit. You don't see the big picture only what they splash across the evening news. Thank you for this opportunity to share.

 

[cardude2000]

You are ignoring the reason why we aren't mining, our laws limiting what we can and can't do to our environment not to mention health and safety. Are you aware that graphite mining is as hazardous as coal mining? Think of the poor people who will be putting their health at risk so that the upper 20% can enjoy feeling good about themselves while getting a carbon tax credit. You don't see the big picture only what they splash across the evening news. Thank you for this opportunity to share.

I don’t “watch” news and I’m not ignoring anything other than the fallacies. The article I linked to talks about the regulatory environment and the environmental hurdles.

And again with an emotional appeal vs an actual response. Why?

So....Do you believe that the “big picture” and best long term plan is to focus only on petroleum?

 

[Quark]

I don’t “watch” news and I’m not ignoring anything other than the fallacies. The article I linked to talks about the regulatory environment and the environmental hurdles.

And again with an emotional appeal vs an actual response. Why?

So....Do you believe that the “big picture” and best long term plan is to focus only on petroleum?

I am very sorry you feel this way I was attempting to raise the level of our discussion beyond hyperbole by providing credible reasons for why I don't believe the technology is ready for huge government outlays. Not to say that it won't ever be capable of a sustainable transition. But... when it is private venture will be more than up to the task by using market forces to do it efficiently.

 

[cardude2000]

I am very sorry you feel this way I was attempting to raise the level of our discussion beyond hyperbole by providing credible reasons for why I don't believe the technology is ready for huge government outlays. Not to say that it won't ever be capable of a sustainable transition. But... when it is private venture will be more than up to the task by using market forces to do it efficiently.

Chicken or the egg but we can agree to disagree. Taking about the top 20%, NIMBY-ISM and “current state” fallacies are all hyperbolic. Furthermore the OMG industry is heavily incentivized so it isn’t free of govt intervention.

That said, what is your view? Drill baby drill until somehow an unfunded technology becomes profitable?

 

[Quark]

Chicken or the egg but we can agree to disagree. Taking about the top 20%, NIMBY-ISM and “current state” fallacies are all hyperbolic. Furthermore the OMG industry is heavily incentivized so it isn’t free of govt intervention.

That said, what is your view? Drill baby drill until somehow an unfunded technology becomes profitable?

By most estimates we have 50 years of usable oil reserves but that keeps increasing not decreasing. Our current administration is reducing that by restricting oil leases on government land and nixing projects such as the Keystone XL thereby reducing the amount of oil transferable from our trading partner, Canada. I'd like to reiterate that mining is much more destructive than oil extraction.

I did read the link you provided. At first I was hesitant in doing so after your proclamation that providing links isn't discussion so I'm not sure where you stand now. It mostly supported my views on the difficulty of regaining our production of rare earth metals industry. If I am remiss feel free to enlighten me. Oh, I find it odd that you profess not to watch the news then link to an CNBC article which mostly relies on government statements in lieu of investigation as usual. This I refer to as media.

With our increasing usable oil reserves I feel we have at least 20 years to improve our EV technology and increase our materials development and supply. Keep in mind as we refine our refining technology the costs of safely providing these elements will increase substantially. This will be a major headwind to weening ourselves from foreign sources who will undoubtedly manipulate prices to retain their lead. These goals will be paramount to our national autonomy and security in the long run. Our resources should be directed to this developing technology and not by forcing something to market that is clearly not ready, IMO. It will take all that we have plus some of what our grandchildren should have.

 

[cardude2000]

By most estimates we have 50 years of usable oil reserves but that keeps increasing not decreasing. Our current administration is reducing that by restricting oil leases on government land and nixing projects such as the Keystone XL thereby reducing the amount of oil transferable from our trading partner, Canada. I'd like to reiterate that mining is much more destructive than oil extraction.

I did read the link you provided. At first I was hesitant in doing so after your proclamation that providing links isn't discussion so I'm not sure where you stand now. It mostly supported my views on the difficulty of regaining our production of rare earth metals industry. If I am remiss feel free to enlighten me. Oh, I find it odd that you profess not to watch the news then link to an CNBC article which mostly relies on government statements in lieu of investigation as usual. This I refer to as media.

With our increasing usable oil reserves I feel we have at least 20 years to improve our EV technology and increase our materials development and supply. Keep in mind as we refine our refining technology the costs of safely providing these elements will increase substantially. This will be a major headwind to weening ourselves from foreign sources who will undoubtedly manipulate prices to retain their lead. These goals will be paramount to our national autonomy and security in the long run. Our resources should be directed to this developing technology and not by forcing something to market that is clearly not ready, IMO. It will take all that we have plus some of what our grandchildren should have.

The petroleum cornucopia position. Interesting.

I’m not totally following your position but it sounds like drill baby drill and invest in renewables for the next 20 years but don’t “force” EV’s? Is that essentially it? If that’s the case then this is a fantastic waste of time since that’s where I sit on the issue lol.

[Re: Sources. You’ll notice that the sources I provide backup or give context to a specific point or position I’ve taken. I’m not linking to a lobbyist or opinion piece and saying “read that”]

 

[Quark]

The petroleum cornucopia position. Interesting.

I’m not totally following your position but it sounds like drill baby drill and invest in renewables for the next 20 years but don’t “force” EV’s? Is that essentially it? If that’s the case then this is a fantastic waste of time since that’s where I sit on the issue lol.

[Re: Sources. You’ll notice that the sources I provide backup or give context to a specific point or position I’ve taken. I’m not linking to a lobbyist or opinion piece and saying “read that”]

If you say we agree, well alright but we diverge when it comes to pushing technology to market in lieu of further developing that technology and waiting till it is feasible. It's a bit difficult to ascertain your stance when it wavers considerably.

As far as that last link it mostly affirms what I said in the previous post but then you pretended that it somehow countered it. I assume you will agree until you decide not to agree.

 

[cardude2000]

If you say we agree, well alright but we diverge when it comes to pushing technology to market in lieu of further developing that technology and waiting till it is feasible. It's a bit difficult to ascertain your stance when it wavers considerably.

As far as that last link it mostly affirms what I said in the previous post but then you pretended that it somehow countered it. I assume you will agree until you decide not to agree.

Right. You think that the govt and industry should invest in EV but not mandate it for another 2 decades. I concur. Always have. Saying I’m wavering won’t make it true. If you look back on my posts I think you’ll see that your knee jerk perception about what I believe doesn’t map to the reality of what I said.

The last link confirms that the US once was and could be again a leader in mineral supply and production. It also confirms that there will be considerable effort to get there and it’s not without issue. As I’ve also said all along, this change to renewables will cause short term discomfort, cost and much gnashing of the teeth. Change always does. The second to last link backed up my point that the US sits on massive REE deposits.

So we’re back to where we began...EV’s are coming. Enjoy the ride!

 

[Quark]

Right. You think that the govt and industry should invest in EV but not mandate it for another 2 decades. I concur. Always have. Saying I’m wavering won’t make it true.

The last link confirms that the US once was and could be again a leader in mineral supply and production. It also confirms that there will be considerable effort to get there and it’s not without issue. As I’ve also said all along, this change to renewables will cause short term discomfort, cost and much gnashing of the teeth. Change always does. The second to last link backed up my point that the US sits on massive REE deposits.

So we’re back to where we began...EV’s are coming. Enjoy the ride!

And as I've said all along... EVs might be coming but they're not ready. Meanwhile we subsidize Tesla to give us poor quality automobiles costing more than our comparable but better quality gas powered cars. And we should enjoy this?

 

[cardude2000]

And as I've said all along... EVs might be coming but they're not ready. Meanwhile we subsidize Tesla to give us poor quality automobiles costing more than our comparable but better quality gas powered cars. And we should enjoy this?

95% of daily drivers would be within range of CURRENT EV technology. Are we ready for 100% EV’s TODAY? Nah. Nobody is suggesting that.

I love technology and and if we’re going to throw money at a mature finite resource/industry to ensure we have <$5 gallon gas I’m good with us also putting some money into emerging technology....especially if the money is being pumped into American technology companies.

You don’t have to enjoy the ride it if you don’t want to. I will.

 

[Quark]

95% of daily drivers would be within range of CURRENT EV technology. Are we ready for 100% EV’s TODAY? Nah. Nobody is suggesting that.

I love technology and and if we’re going to throw money at a mature finite resource/industry to ensure we have >$5 gallon gas I’m good with us also putting some money into emerging technology....especially if the money is being pumped into American technology companies.

You don’t have to enjoy the ride it if you don’t want to. I will.

Well there's the problem. We have a choice when it comes to throwing money at a mature practical ICE based automobile that will serve 100% of the people 100% of the time but we have no choice in subsidizing an EV that serves the top 20% of earners 80% of the time.

Speaking of Tesla I just read that they're having trouble meeting sales forecasts in China. Seems the Chinese expect higher quality than Americans when it comes to EVs. Who would have thunk it.

 

[Quark]

dupe