What did you do to your NNBS GMT900 Tahoe/Yukon Today?

[kbuskill]

Someone started a thread on this a while back and I dug into it just cuz I was (as usual) looking for a productive way to ride the clock.

I may try to find that thread, but my synopsis was that Ruthenium is a much cheaper metal, but comparable in performance to Iridium in this application. So, plug manufacturers could produce plugs that perform as well (allegedly) and sell at the same (or higher) price but profit more since Ruthenium was cheaper.

On our end, I don't think there would be any perceivable difference in performance. And, at that time, they were still so new that there wasn't any real-world consumer feedback. There was only manufacturer "lab test results" with fancy computer-generated pictures of pretty flame propagation. I looked into the Ruthenium metal itself and found that it was considerably softer than Iridium, which made me question it's length of life.

My personal conclusion was that the Platinum and Iridium plugs we run now have all been proven millions of times to perform well past 100K miles so I have no reason to experiment with a new plug, especially if it costs the same. Even if there was a performance gain to be had, I don't see it being anything we'd feel. IMO, stock for stock, if you feel a difference from a simple plug change, your old plugs weren't up to par in the first place.

It was me who started that thread about these plugs.

 

[iamdub]

I doubt anybody will feel any difference between copper, platinum, double platinum, iridium or any other plug when first installed. Longevity is supposedly what the difference is. When platinum plugs came out, they were advertised to last longer than copper ones. Same with iridium. In my experience this is true, at least as far as going from copper to iridium. I never used platinums. And now they say the ruthenium will last longer than any other.

I agree. I'm not saying they WON'T last and/or perform as long or longer. I'm just saying I'm fine with the 75-100K I get out of the plugs that came in it from the factory. After someone with a NA, MPFI LS engine puts 75-100K on a set of Rutheniums and reports equal or better results, then I'll reassess. For now, I have MANY other aspects for which to be a guinea pig.

And the amount of any of these rare metals is so tiny that it doesn’t account for any difference in manufacturing cost since it’s only the center electrode that’s a ruthenium alloy ( so even this tiny part isn’t pure ruthenium) imo.

It is a tiny amount. But, if the plugs are all identical otherwise, then comparing that one variable is sound regardless of how small it is relative to the rest. Now, if making the Ruthenium electrode requires more expensive and/or other alloys and/or processes, then maybe this would offset that much cheaper cost of the Ruthenium itself. I'll never know nor care to investigate.

So now they say these ruthenium plugs last longer that the iridiums and they supposedly have the tests to prove it. They’re about the same price so imo, why not? Did you feel the same when they came out with iridium plugs, that they’re more expensive so you didn’t want to try them since platinum worked fine?

I'm absolutely not against anyone trying it nor am I bashing the product at all. I only looked up the metals themselves and based my conclusions on what I read and what I've experienced. I'm all for others trying them. I never personally researched or compared Iridium to Platinum- didn't have to. By the time I was really messing with engines to that detail, both had been out plenty long enough with real-world use to just follow everyone else's experiences. Both styles were coming in cars from the factory so I surely didn't need to perform my own experimenting behind engineers. Also, just looking at the simple fact that the hardness of the material obviously plays a role in longevity, Platinum and Iridium are superior to copper in this aspect. In my mind, going to a softer metal MAY be going backward. Maybe nothing detrimental, but still. As I questioned in Ken's thread on these things last year, is there a too hard of electrode, like maybe a point where it's too brittle and needs some sort of elasticity, actually making it more resilient? Again, I don't know nor have any reason to dive in.

BTW I was running the old copper plugs for quite awhile in order to make sure I didn’t need to change heat ranges again and at $2.50 per plug they were cheap to experiment on. But now I know the heat range is correct I’m buying the best plugs they make. The last set lasted me less than 15,000 miles and they’re done. It runs fine once it’s warmed up but cold starts I need to hit the gas a bit in order to keep it running. I’ve never had iridiums last more that 30-40k in my trucks before they start to show signs of being worn. So I’m hoping to get 50k out of this new design.

They may very well be the greatest plug ever for a boosted application. By all means, do your testing- someone has to! It's tough to beat the performance of a copper plug but their lifespan SUCKS, especially (as you know) in a performance application.

100k on a set of plugs? Not in my experience but I’m not running the newest generation of engines either and my DD is supercharged as you know and combined with the way I drive, it’s ******* everything.
NGK’s website has more information on the new plugs.

I've pulled Platinum plugs from engines that haven't been touched in ~100K miles plenty of times for the "by the book, 100K-mile scheduled service outline". Quite often, the plugs didn't look all that bad. Visible and measurable wear, of course, but nothing horrible. Granted, these weren't on modified or raced engines. Anyone putting their engine in a modified performance environment isn't gonna do so on stock plugs for 100K miles.

My 5.3 (sadly) is "stock" so I'm comparing stock-for-stock. The plugs spec'ed by and included from the factory have established performance results that I am more than satisfied with. Until these new plugs, or any others for that matter have proven results superior to them, I have no reason to try them. This doesn't mean I'm doubting or bashing any (alleged) advancements.

 

[kbuskill]

I run the TR6 copper plugs. They aren’t listed for my engine either- heat range is too cold. TR5 is called for. Whippple calls for a TR7 but I found it was running rough and Blackbear said that plug is too cold, use a TR6. Then for iridium the suffix is IX and ruthenium have the AHX suffix. So I ordered the TR6AHX or 92714 is the cross reference number. If you look up the application for my 2002 6.0, NGK calls for the TR5AHX or TR5IX. I’m just ordering one heat range colder.

Did you get the DFE style or the PSPE style though???

The PSPE style is supposedly designed specifically for boosted applications.

The PSPE design is what NGK told me they didn't have a plug for our applications.

I would have liked to try the PSPE style on my NA engine simply because the electrode is cut back which doesn't shield the spark and should help with the flame front propagation.

Its similar to the old racers trick of "side gapping" spark plugs.

I doubt that the performance difference from one style to the other would be noticeable but I would be curious to see how the MPG would be affected.

 

[Rocket Man]

Did you get the DFE style or the PSPE style though???

The PSPE style is supposedly designed specifically for boosted applications.

View attachment 239780

The PSPE design is what NGK told me they didn't have a plug for our applications.

I would have liked to try the PSPE style on my NA engine simply because the electrode is cut back which doesn't shield the spark and should help with the flame front propagation.

Its similar to the old racers trick of "side gapping" spark plugs.

I doubt that the performance difference from one style to the other would be noticeable but I would be curious to see how the MPG would be affected.

DFE, they don’t make the PPSE for LS engines. As far as being a ”guinea pig” that’s not what I’m about. I just see the plugs as being advertised as lasting longer, and NGK has done the guinea pig part by doing their own testing. Just like when the last generations of new plugs came out, they went through extensive testing before they were unleashed on the public. These companies test the shit out of their products by running engines in extreme conditions for thousands of hours in order to simulate real world harsh conditions. I doubt many people went to the periodic tables to research the properties of the metals that went into the electrodes (@iamdub yes talking about you lmao) because like I stated earlier, the actual composition is an ALLOY which means the percentage of ruthenium as well as what other rare metals they mixed in is unknown and most likely proprietary. So my argument regarding the cost of the metals themselves being an unlikely factor in the list price or the manufacturing case is still sound. As far as the hardness of raw ruthenium, we don’t know what the composition of the actual alloy is other than the fact that it’s ruthenium alloy. It could be mixed in with harder or softer metals than the alloy they use in the iridium plugs. So unless we know the properties of the exact alloy they use, we can’t make any assumptions. And I guarantee you won’t get that alloy makeup out of NGK, there’s no way they’re going to let that out to the other manufacturers. The plugs are about the same cost as iridium. They say they last longer. I have no reason to believe or disbelieve them but I’m pretty sure they last at least as long. If not, and they don’t last long or perform at least as good as the last generation of iridiums, NGK will suffer with bad publicity and loss of market share. I doubt they’re willing to take that risk. Pretty sure they know their research is proven. They have too much to lose by trying to pull a fast one, and they’ve been around forever. Companies don’t last that long if they don’t know what they’re doing.

 

[wjburken]

Pretty sure they know their research is proven. They have too much to lose by trying to pull a fast one, and they’ve been around forever. Companies don’t last that long if they don’t know what they’re doing.

Yeah-Not always!

 

[Rocket Man]

Yeah-Not always!
View attachment 239781

That’s kinda different, we’re not tasting our spark plugs. Consumer taste is a hard one to research. Spark plug life, not so hard.

 

[R3cord303]

Well maybe it’s just me but I notice a difference in how smooth they run waaaay sooner than that lol. Plus I’m of the belief that I want to replace plugs sooner that later especially in aluminum heads so they don’t end up seized in there. But if you want to leave your plugs in for 100-200k, that’s totally your call. These engines tend to run a bit rough at idle anyway so maybe it’s my imagination but mine have sure seemed smoother at idle after a fresh set of plugs, and they’re not an expensive maintenance item.

With my old s10 i could tell a difference in how it ran every time i changed the oil. Its a lot harder for me to tell in the tahoe.

 

[mikeyss]

I installed one of these on the L9H today, drivers side rear.... What a pain in the ******* ass!!! There was almost no room to get the bolts into the rear of the head with the padding and metal guards in the way. The bolt holding the ground strap fought me the hardest! I only installed this as a temporary measure because the leak was getting bad, and I will fix the bolt when it's time to put headers and a cam in it.

 

[HiHoeSilver]

I installed one of these on the L9H today, drivers side rear.... What a pain in the ******* ass!!! There was almost no room to get the bolts into the rear of the head with the padding and metal guards in the way. The bolt holding the ground strap fought me the hardest! I only installed this as a temporary measure because the leak was getting bad, and I will fix the bolt when it's time to put headers and a cam in it.

View attachment 239787

Exhaust manifold clamp? Kral?

 

[iamdub]

I installed one of these on the L9H today, drivers side rear.... What a pain in the ******* ass!!! There was almost no room to get the bolts into the rear of the head with the padding and metal guards in the way. The bolt holding the ground strap fought me the hardest! I only installed this as a temporary measure because the leak was getting bad, and I will fix the bolt when it's time to put headers and a cam in it.

View attachment 239787

Well, if you didn't have such a big motor it might not have been so difficult.

 

[mikeyss]

It was a Kral, and it definitely is a great fix... I thought I was developing lifter tick, and now that the Kral is on, that noise is completely gone. I swear it feels even peppier off the line now. Once I pull the heads off later this summer to swap the cam, I'll drill out the broken bolt and install ARH long tubes.

 

[Rocket Man]

It was a Kral, and it definitely is a great fix... I thought I was developing lifter tick, and now that the Kral is on, that noise is completely gone. I swear it feels even peppier off the line now. Once I pull the heads off later this summer to swap the cam, I'll drill out the broken bolt and install ARH long tubes.

I thought the same thing when I had a leak. They sound almost exactly the same. And great decision on the ARH, you’ll love the way they fit as well as the way they look and sound. I have had to pull mine partially off twice since the original install and both times I was super glad I went with theirs instead of some of the cheaper ones. They’re designed to be able to remove sections like the midpipes or y if you have one (I don’t) for servicing your trans or anything else and then reassemble without any headaches.

 

[kbuskill]

DFE, they don’t make the PPSE for LS engines.

This is why I said good luck, because that's what they told me when I asked.

I guess I wrongly assumed that you would want/need the PSPE design since your truck is supercharged.

On a different note...

I had my son to install the new Ruthenium plugs in the Honda today... I can't really tell any difference from the NGK Iridium plugs that came out, which I assume were the originals with 96K miles on them, BUT I also RARELY drive the Honda and it's a 1.8L so not exactly a rocket to start with... lol

He also changed the oil and filter and installed a new transmission filter and flushed all the old fluid out of the transmission on the Honda today as well.

I got rid of the Honda DW-1 fluid and refilled with full synthetic Dexron VI... same as the Burb... some people may frown on that because it's not a Honda fluid but I am not worried about it... it shifts out nice and smooth.

 

[swathdiver]

I want to pro-actively change out my exhaust manifold bolts/studs with ARP brand but not sure which to buy. Any suggestions? Their website makes my head spin.

 

[Sam Harris]

It was a Kral, and it definitely is a great fix... I thought I was developing lifter tick, and now that the Kral is on, that noise is completely gone. I swear it feels even peppier off the line now. Once I pull the heads off later this summer to swap the cam, I'll drill out the broken bolt and install ARH long tubes.

Oooh yeaaah!!

 

[Rocket Man]

This is why I said good luck, because that's what they told me when I asked.

I guess I wrongly assumed that you would want/need the PSPE design since your truck is supercharged.

On a different note...

I had my son to install the new Ruthenium plugs in the Honda today... I can't really tell any difference from the NGK Iridium plugs that came out, which I assume were the originals with 96K miles on them, BUT I also RARELY drive the Honda and it's a 1.8L so not exactly a rocket to start with... lol

He also changed the oil and filter and installed a new transmission filter and flushed all the old fluid out of the transmission on the Honda today as well.

I got rid of the Honda DW-1 fluid and refilled with full synthetic Dexron VI... same as the Burb... some people may frown on that because it's not a Honda fluid but I am not worried about it... it shifts out nice and smooth.

I mean sure, if they offered them I would get those. But none of the other plugs I’ve ever bought were specifically made for a supercharged engine nor has either Whipple or Blackbear ever mentioned plugs with electrodes made just for a supercharger so I don’t see the need to start concerning myself with that now. I mean, I’ve been running old school copper plugs with their fat-ass electrodes for the last year and they work great ( but don’t last long) so I’ll just try the ruthenium’s with the standard electrodes. I’m sure they’ll be fine, I’m not concerned at all. NGK doesn’t even list any version of the TR6 as applicable for my engine, and of course they show nothing as being applicable for a supercharged LQ4 because they only list products for stock configurations. Once you start making performance modifications like cams, blowers, compression changes, nitrous, etc you're on your own. They won’t help you if you ask them what to use.

 

[Rocket Man]

I want to pro-actively change out my exhaust manifold bolts/studs with ARP brand but not sure which to buy. Any suggestions? Their website makes my head spin.

I know what you mean. I have a set of their flex plate bolts here that don’t fit because I got the wrong ones. ***** confusing on their site. Good luck!

 

[kbuskill]

I mean sure, if they offered them I would get those. But none of the other plugs I’ve ever bought were specifically made for a supercharged engine nor has either Whipple or Blackbear ever mentioned plugs with electrodes made just for a supercharger so I don’t see the need to start concerning myself with that now. I mean, I’ve been running old school copper plugs with their fat-ass electrodes for the last year and they work great ( but don’t last long) so I’ll just try the ruthenium’s with the standard electrodes. I’m sure they’ll be fine, I’m not concerned at all. NGK doesn’t even list any version of the TR6 as applicable for my engine, and of course they show nothing as being applicable for a supercharged LQ4 because they only list products for stock configurations. Once you start making performance modifications like cams, blowers, compression changes, nitrous, etc you're on your own. They won’t help you if you ask them what to use.

I understand... I thought that perhaps they would have a plug for the supercharged ZR-1 but they don't. I figured since the ZR-1 came with a 6.2l supercharged LS9 that if they had a PSPE plug for it then it could be used in your truck but I guess that is not the case.

While I doubt that the difference in the plug tip design would make a huge difference... evidently NGK thinks it makes some kind of difference or else they wouldn't trouble themselves to develop and produce and market the PSPE plugs specifically for boosted applications.

Maybe one day they will get around to making some that will fit our LS engines.

 

[R3cord303]

Speaking of exhaust leaks and lifter ticks- I thought I was getting one but it may just be a leaky exhaust manifold. I wanna pull them off to port them and lap the mating surface to keep them for leaking

 

[Rocket Man]

Speaking of exhaust leaks and lifter ticks- I thought I was getting one but it may just be a leaky exhaust manifold. I wanna pull them off to port them and lap the mating surface to keep them for leaking

Just get some good gaskets. Got any broken bolts?