Rocket Man's 02 Denali Build Thread AKA "THE BEAST"

[Rocket Man]

Well shit it looks like my trans problem just turned into a crankshaft endplay problem. Performabuilt said it looks like my thrust bearing in the engine must be bad from looking at what happened to the trans. He said it appeared that the converter was bashing into the input shaft of the transmission and pretty much grenaded the innards. He said he'll be sending me a mostly new transmission. They told me to check the crank and if there's and forward-to-rear play the thrust bearing is shot. I got under there tonight and I remounted the flexplate and I can feel a very distinct clink when I push and pull on it, like the crank is moving a tiny bit front and back. I'm sure it's moving, I can feel it. So now I've been trying to read up on whether I can do this from underneath. I have read on rolling the main bearings in and out but can't find anything specifically on the thrust bearing which is incorporated into the center main bearing so PLEASE if anybody knows if this can be done or has any knowledge on these things, let me know. I do NOT want to pull the motor. ARRRRRGGGHHHHH. I have done main bearings but with the engine pulled so I have some experience and I trust my skill level. I know how to use plasti gauge...
But first things first- I ordered a dial indicator to check the end play correctly. Specs are .0015-.0078 inch so I'll see. On another note, I was instructed to send in the converter to have it checked out so it's on it's way to FTI.

 

[Fless]

Well, crud, Mark. That stinks.

 

[bottomline2000]

Holy crap this is kicking my ass. I got the trans mounted by 10:30 this morning but ran into trouble bolting up the torque converter; FTI's instructions say if the gap between the flexplate and the converter pads is over 3/16" I need to install .060" washers as spacers. I tried for 2-3 hours but couldn't get them in. The flexplate is in the way; you're working through the starter hole and the hole in the flexplate is way back from the edge so I was trying to use grease to stick the washer to my finger and then hold it against the back side of the flexplate and slide it in and stick a bolt through because I can't hold it and put it back there. Every time I (thought I ) had one in and the bolt started, I had to slide out and go turn the crank over until I thought the next bole was close to the hole down there, then go down and use a screwdriver to line the next bolt hole up where I could get to it and the washer, and every time I thought I had one in, it would fall out when turning the crank. I did each bolt at least 4-5 times. I couldn't even see if they were in by using an inspection mirror. It's real hard just to get a bolt in, much less reach around behind and slide a washer between the flexplate and converter. My gap is maybe .030 over the .187 (3/16") they spec. I'm going to leave it. So then I started installing the transfer case but the trans was hanging too low so I tried leaving it jacked up and hanging with one end on the rear crossmember while I installed the front (trans) crossmember. I was using a second floor jack on the trans and needed to lower it a bit to line things up but lowered the wrong jack and the t case came down because I was watching the trans and it wasn't coming down! But then I figured I needed to install the exhaust first anyway so I started on that and it was fighting me so I just stopped for the day. I'm beat. This is hard with one person. I'll get it tomorrow though. I made a lot of progress today.

I always wondered about this and remember talking to you about converter spacing. Could this have caused the issue?

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[05Single]

Harsh buddy. Sorry I'm no help, that way above my pay grade. Pulling a transmission and or engine and learning has always been a project I've been excited to do, I've just never had the reason to do so....yet.

 

[Rocket Man]

I always wondered about this and remember talking to you about converter spacing. Could this have caused the issue?

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They said if there’s any spacers they need to be REMOVED.I never put any in. I explained to them and said it was barely over 3/16 space and they said that wasn’t the problem, they think it’s opposite that. Not enough spacing which they think is because of crank end play but I can see less that 1/32 so it makes no sense. I’m wondering if what really messed things up happened AFTER the initial breakage, when the tow driver loaded it on a flatbed even though it wouldn’t move backward so he forced it back by winching , pulling, bouncing it for 2 hours when the trans was locked up by whatever initially happened. I haven’t told Performabuilt about that yet. I’m afraid they’ll void my warranty. I’ll check endplay first then go from there.

 

[Sam Harris]

They said if there’s any spacers they need to be REMOVED.I never put any in. I explained to them and said it was barely over 3/16 space and they said that wasn’t the problem, they think it’s opposite that. Not enough spacing which they think is because of crank end play but I can see less that 1/32 so it makes no sense. I’m wondering if what really messed things up happened AFTER the initial breakage, when the tow driver loaded it on a flatbed even though it wouldn’t move backward so he forced it back by winching , pulling, bouncing it for 2 hours when the trans was locked up by whatever initially happened. I haven’t told Performabuilt about that yet. I’m afraid they’ll void my warranty. I’ll check endplay first then go from there.

Oh damn! Sounds like crankshafts should have come out! [emoji2959]

 

[Rocket Man]

Oh damn! Sounds like crankshafts should have come out! [emoji2959]

Why do you say that? I see no need for that unless the crank endplay is excessive which I don’t believe. The spacers are a normal part of shimming the converter but I’m close enough there I believe and that doesn’t require pulling the crank anyway.

 

[Chrismnj]

Moving forward, good luck, you will fix it in no time. for me gettin enough motivation to start is the hardest, after that bolt by bolt and you there

 

[bottomline2000]

That sucks..something isn't right because being slightly out of spec away from the flex plate may compromise the input shaft or converter pump, but if there was not enough spacing you would have crushed the input shaft immediately. If anything you have extra room for crank end play. I'm curious what the converter company has to say.

Pic examples of what the different spacing looks like internally on this thread..see if performabuilt can provide pics of the carnage and try to make sense of this..you would be on the shallow end so you can see how the pump rotor would be compromised if anything..if your spacing is on the high side and the flexplate flexes then you can see where your engagement problems start.

I don't think your crank is compromised..I'd say you need to measure the converter pads to bell housing spacing when you get it back to 1st make sure the converter sits deep enough in the trans then mock up the trans without the transfer case, check spacing, drop it back down and find a way to put proper shims in place if needed. Check out the pics from circle d in this thread.

Add in the torque from a blown motor and you can see how things can get bad fast..


https://ls1tech.com/forums/automatic-transmission/1766497-why-converter-clearance-important.html

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[randeez]

Harsh buddy. Sorry I'm no help, that way above my pay grade. Pulling a transmission and or engine and learning has always been a project I've been excited to do, I've just never had the reason to do so....yet.

let @Rocket Man borrow it for the weekend, he'll make sure something breaks and the nyoull get the chance

seriously though, hope you get it figured out .. i looked into it a little bit the end play for an LS is very tight it sounds like - if youre hearing a clink shifting the crank from one end to the other it's probably way out. youve got me looking into checking mine out too. I will send some pics tonight when i get home - didnt mess around in garage last night.

 

[Tonyrodz]

Hope you get it figured out Mark. Totally sux.

 

[Sam Harris]

Why do you say that? I see no need for that unless the crank endplay is excessive which I don’t believe. The spacers are a normal part of shimming the converter but I’m close enough there I believe and that doesn’t require pulling the crank anyway.

I’m saying they should have come out, before the tow truck driver yanked your 6000 LB vehicle around, using the transmission as a buffer between tire traction and force.

 

[Rocket Man]

I’m saying they should have come out, before the tow truck driver yanked your 6000 LB vehicle around, using the transmission as a buffer between tire traction and force.

Oh, you meant to say driveshafts not crankshafts. In hindsight I shouldn’t have let him load it on a flatbed and insisted on a different truck where they could have lifted 2 wheels off the ground and put dollies under the other 2. The unloading was traumatic for the trans and I believe that’s where it got grenaded since it was locked up. And it probably didn’t help that I started the truck and tried to move it a few times while it sat for months.

 

[Sam Harris]

Oh, you meant to say driveshafts not crankshafts. In hindsight I shouldn’t have let him load it on a flatbed and insisted on a different truck where they could have lifted 2 wheels off the ground and put dollies under the other 2. The unloading was traumatic for the trans and I believe that’s where it got grenaded since it was locked up. And it probably didn’t help that I started the truck and tried to move it a few times while it sat for months.

OMG yes, I meant driveshafts [emoji1787][emoji23]

 

[Rocket Man]

bottomline2000 said:That sucks..something isn't right because being slightly out of spec away from the flex plate may compromise the input shaft or converter pump, but if there was not enough spacing you would have crushed the input shaft immediately. If anything you have extra room for crank end play. I'm curious what the converter company has to say.

Agreed. Still waiting to hear back from FTI on the converter. Had to ship it all the way to Florida. But initial measurement on the end play is .012 inch but I couldn’t get a good reading until I remove the flex plate again and it was pouring down rain so I quit. Tolerance is .0002-.0008 but I believe that’s for a new engine.

Pic examples of what the different spacing looks like internally on this thread..see if performabuilt can provide pics of the carnage and try to make sense of this..you would be on the shallow end so you can see how the pump rotor would be compromised if anything..if your spacing is on the high side and the flexplate flexes then you can see where your engagement problems start.

This is what I was concerned with when I initially installed everything. TCI (the mfr of the flex plate ) as well as everything I read states 1/8-3/16” is ok and I was between 3/16- 1/4” but closer to 3/16. I tried for hours to get spacers in but due to the design of the converter I found it impossible with the trans in place and I couldn’t bring myself to lower it back down, plus still didn’t see how that would help. I’m thinking now that I can glue them to the flex plate and that’d prolly what Ill do this time, before installing the trans.

I don't think your crank is compromised..I'd say you need to measure the converter pads to bell housing spacing when you get it back to 1st make sure the converter sits deep enough in the trans then mock up the trans without the transfer case, check spacing, drop it back down and find a way to put proper shims in place if needed. Check out the pics from circle d in this thread.

I think that even at .012 which is close to what it is, it doesn’t factor into the problem. The spacing between the flex plate and converter allow for at least .075 tolerance there so I don’t see how .012 end play would matter. And I did check pump engagement by measuring the converter pads to bell housing and they were right at 1/2” just as specified by Performabuilt.

Add in the torque from a blown motor and you can see how things can get bad fast..


https://ls1tech.com/forums/automatic-transmission/1766497-why-converter-clearance-important.html

 

[Rocket Man]

The trans is being delivered today. Full rebuild under warranty. And FTI just called to ask what’s going on with the converter- they cut it open and found nothing wrong with it. I asked if they saw evidence that it had been banging into the input shaft of the trans and he said no. I believe the trans just broke and the tow truck dude did more damage unloading it when it was locked up. I’ll do one more check of the crank end play and if it checks out I’ll just make sure the converter to flex plate spacing is correct and shim it somehow if it isn’t.

 

[randeez]

bottomline2000 said:That sucks..something isn't right because being slightly out of spec away from the flex plate may compromise the input shaft or converter pump, but if there was not enough spacing you would have crushed the input shaft immediately. If anything you have extra room for crank end play. I'm curious what the converter company has to say.

Agreed. Still waiting to hear back from FTI on the converter. Had to ship it all the way to Florida. But initial measurement on the end play is .012 inch but I couldn’t get a good reading until I remove the flex plate again and it was pouring down rain so I quit. Tolerance is .0002-.0008 but I believe that’s for a new engine.

Pic examples of what the different spacing looks like internally on this thread..see if performabuilt can provide pics of the carnage and try to make sense of this..you would be on the shallow end so you can see how the pump rotor would be compromised if anything..if your spacing is on the high side and the flexplate flexes then you can see where your engagement problems start.

This is what I was concerned with when I initially installed everything. TCI (the mfr of the flex plate ) as well as everything I read states 1/8-3/16” is ok and I was between 3/16- 1/4” but closer to 3/16. I tried for hours to get spacers in but due to the design of the converter I found it impossible with the trans in place and I couldn’t bring myself to lower it back down, plus still didn’t see how that would help. I’m thinking now that I can glue them to the flex plate and that’d prolly what Ill do this time, before installing the trans.

I don't think your crank is compromised..I'd say you need to measure the converter pads to bell housing spacing when you get it back to 1st make sure the converter sits deep enough in the trans then mock up the trans without the transfer case, check spacing, drop it back down and find a way to put proper shims in place if needed. Check out the pics from circle d in this thread.

I think that even at .012 which is close to what it is, it doesn’t factor into the problem. The spacing between the flex plate and converter allow for at least .075 tolerance there so I don’t see how .012 end play would matter. And I did check pump engagement by measuring the converter pads to bell housing and they were right at 1/2” just as specified by Performabuilt.

Add in the torque from a blown motor and you can see how things can get bad fast..


https://ls1tech.com/forums/automatic-transmission/1766497-why-converter-clearance-important.html

nice pictures..... and because i just bolted my converter back to flex plate i feel better. I had always heard you only want to have to pull the converter back to the flexplate about an 1/8 inch.
Not sure who from, or if it was even correct but it had been what I always shot for

 

[Rocket Man]

nice pictures..... and because i just bolted my converter back to flex plate i feel better. I had always heard you only want to have to pull the converter back to the flexplate about an 1/8 inch.
Not sure who from, or if it was even correct but it had been what I always shot for

1/8-3/16 but no less than 1/8 or more than 3/16 which is what worried me since I had about 1/64th more.

 

[Rocket Man]

The first time I saw this I was like YESSSSSSS!!!!! But this time Im not as excited for some reason although don’t get me wrong it will be awesome to drive The Beast again.

 

[randeez]

done yet?

(as mine is still on jack stands as well)