Mild 6.0L Build Suggestions?

[Matthew Jeschke]

Looking Good!
You should plan on a set of long tube headers and free flow exhaust (doesn't have to be loud).
That will help you with your plan to maximize TQ and fuel mileage.

I found a set on craigslist for 100$.. should have snagged them...

discovered a snafu. I pushed the trust bearing backwards on last hit instead of forwards, leaving slack in crank to front of motor instead of back. not sure if is a big issue or not. I assume they prefer slack to back so pressure plate has more play when fully assembled?

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[Matthew Jeschke]

ah Sheit! After all that work, it maybe the heads are a write off. I dropped them off at the machine shop. They need $700 worth of machine work. One of the water jackets is corroded pretty bad (I didn't notice stupid me). They quoted me up to $700 to get them rebuild. At this point I'm wondering if there's a good set of aftermarket heads that might meet my goals and I just bolt the suckers on.

This build is NOT a racing build. It's a low end power build, that preferably doesn't sacrifice power up top from factory. I'm going to tow, overland, and road trip with it. Must get decent mileage (if there is such a thing with 6.0). I'm asking a lot but think this is basically describing a low end torque motor, not a high revving setup. One last requirement, MUST RUN ON 87 octane. The mountains where I go sell nothing else.

All the aftermarket parts companies seem to cater to and market for high revving builds. Any idea who makes good heads for low rev toque motor?

 

[Tonyrodz]

ah Sheit! After all that work, it maybe the heads are a write off. I dropped them off at the machine shop. They need $700 worth of machine work. One of the water jackets is corroded pretty bad (I didn't notice stupid me). They quoted me up to $700 to get them rebuild. At this point I'm wondering if there's a good set of aftermarket heads that might meet my goals and I just bolt the suckers on.

This build is NOT a racing build. It's a low end power build, that preferably doesn't sacrifice power up top from factory. I'm going to tow, overland, and road trip with it. Must get decent mileage (if there is such a thing with 6.0). I'm asking a lot but think this is basically describing a low end torque motor, not a high revving setup. One last requirement, MUST RUN ON 87 octane. The mountains where I go sell nothing else.

All the aftermarket parts companies seem to cater to and market for high revving builds. Any idea who makes good heads for low rev toque motor?

Why not just buy a set of used oem heads? Can't be that expensive--then go from there.

 

[Matthew Jeschke]

The factory heads rebuilt were 265$ on ebay a piece.

I got mavhine shop to knock off $150 so while isnt cheap is cheaper than alternative.

I also contacted roget vinci who made my cam.. he said ultimate build for me would be with AFR mongoose 210cc heads. I found those but were 2400$ haha

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[Matthew Jeschke]

Todays progress

Got cam installed. Dounle checking my sanity. I have timing marks aligned correctly? I looked in book about a dozen times to nake sure haha

Also first motor I built had blown up since timing gear came off cam. Not taking any chances here using blue locktight on those bolts despite manual doesnt call for it. I used the locktight on:

cam thrust plate
cam gear
oil pump because why not.

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[Matthew Jeschke]

A few setbacks today *sigh*. First the heads. I got them figured out. The AFR set / Mongoose 205cc would be BAD ass. Roger Vinci who made my cam said they'd be good for 25 hp on my build. Although that's $100 per HP haha Maybe SOMEDAY, I dream more. I called back the machine shop and they said they'd take $550 to rebuild the heads so I'm going with the 317s I cleaned up.

Now for the latest blunder. Went to install piston rings. Also the c-clips I ordered were wrong size too omg fml haha. My pistons are GM Part #88894241. Literally OEM pistons, direct replacements for factory LQ9 as seen in Escalade from years 2003-2006. I ordered a re-ring kit from summit racing based off a 2003 Escalade. I also explained I'm building the motor per that spec w/ all factory parts (minus valvetrain). We found the ones I ordered. Well.... Seems I have another odd casting / GM part number AND OR the parts catalog from Sealed Power on SummitRacing.com is wrong. Per build specs for LS2/LQ9 or 2003 Escalade 6.0 SummitRacing.com specs rings of 1.5mm / 1.5mm / 3.0mm and that's what I ordered.

Turns out my pistons are 1.2mm / 1.5mm / 2.5mm. No clue why. It's a GM part number, but everything on SummitRacing.com specs otherwise. They were SUPER helpful when I called back in and extended my return window for the rings. The guy seemed to think there was indeed a few pistons made with those size ring groves. That said and done set me back $80 more for the stupid odd size piston rings.

Long story short... if you do this, buy a rod, piston kit, and or with the crank. Don't buy the parts separately or reuse factory rods. I'm spending WAY more time and effort to do it with inferior parts. It cost a bit more but damn what a PITA for inferior parts

 

[fasteddy]

$700 to rebuild heads? and you supply the springs and not even CNC ported? No way.
I'd shop around......

Maybe $400 if they put in new valves and you give them the springs.

You're brave to build the engine.....I'm praying for ya.

And progress is looking good!

 

[Matthew Jeschke]

haha thanks, the heades needed welded up as somw of the water jackets had corroded really bad. They needed a stud removed as well. I am not sure if they were replacing the exhaust valves but they at lwast all needed extensive clwaning up as pitted pretty bad.

I do think was $$$ they cut down to 550 but still.. that said I wouldnt go anywhere else in tucson. I interviewed a handful of shops most didn't even know a screwdriver from a hammer. Let along how to balance an LS engine. Wouldnt let them within a mile of my heads.

This same shop balanced my crank and pistons for 200$. They did a great job so kind of a break even / listtle pricey overall. But they are super nice and damn do they know their stuff. Couldnt stump em on anything haha. If you are in town def look them up, it is called racers edge.

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[Matthew Jeschke]

Killing time waiting for piston rings to come in and the heads to get finished up. Decided to pick up some high temperature paint and paint up the front cover along with oil pan. Turned out pretty good

I need to knock that seal out of the front cover though and install the new one. My manual says to pay somebody else to do it. Surely it cannot be that hard?

Also is there no retainer for the back of the cam at the back of the block? or are the thrust plate and cam gear only things holding it in place? I used lock tight on both as am a bit fearful of that.

 

[fasteddy]

OK......Heads needed to be welded? Waterjackets? Some of those places you can't even get too.
How many welds? If its more than 1 (and don't take this the wrong way) I would just throw those heads away.
Aluminum is very delicate to weld on. How do you test their welds? Validation of repair work is always critical.

Its not worth the risk of putting them on only to have a nagging small coolant leak.
Will they at least warranty against leaks?

I don't even like welded blocks and iron is much easier.

All your external parts look very pretty! Awesome Job!

In answer to your very deep cam question....I have no idea. I'm not an engine builder, thats a pretty specialized skill.
I buy defined short blocks, long blocks and slam them in. I've done heads and cam but not in an empty block.

You need an engine builder mentor.....someone who can help you navigate the process.
Maybe LS1Tech......lots of 6.0L guys over there....camaros & some trucks.
Or youtube.....always good for education....some take questions
(5) How To Build An LS Engine - Assembly Part 1 - YouTube

 

[1BADI5]

Yeah the normal spot where LS heads crack and leak coolant is around the head bolt surface.

Normal protocol for those heads in the shops I have worked at is to replace the head. Its to hard to guarantee a proper fix when leaking like that.

 

[Matthew Jeschke]

Yeah the normal spot where LS heads crack and leak coolant is around the head bolt surface.

Normal protocol for those heads in the shops I have worked at is to replace the head. Its to hard to guarantee a proper fix when leaking like that.

It wasn't cracked... It was corroded.

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[Matthew Jeschke]

The guy who owned them before me had them in a racecar. I think he ran straight water and didn't bother adding any anti corrosion to the water. Our water here is EXTREMELY hard water, and from the looks of it I wonder if he didn't have a water softener (salt in the water). I saw it when I bought them but didn't think much of it. Figured it would clean up. But once the heads were cleaned up more and the machine shop looked at them...

They noticed that it had eaten into at least one of the seal rings for the combustion chamber. They looked at it for a while and said it could be repaired. They will add material, weld more aluminum, to those jackets and plain the head. I asked and they said they do it quite frequently and will be as good as new.

To their credit they said would be best to discard these heads and start with another set... However, I found it was $600 for a set of 317 heads ready to install, BUT they didn't have the 40 hours or so I put into polishing the exhaust and combustion chambers like these ones. So for $550 I get these heads cleaned up and rebuilt.

For whatever odd reason, the other head didn't have the corrosion on it, and looked great.

 

[Matthew Jeschke]

OK......Heads needed to be welded? Waterjackets? Some of those places you can't even get too.
How many welds? If its more than 1 (and don't take this the wrong way) I would just throw those heads away.
Aluminum is very delicate to weld on. How do you test their welds? Validation of repair work is always critical.

Its not worth the risk of putting them on only to have a nagging small coolant leak.
Will they at least warranty against leaks?

I don't even like welded blocks and iron is much easier.

All your external parts look very pretty! Awesome Job!

In answer to your very deep cam question....I have no idea. I'm not an engine builder, thats a pretty specialized skill.
I buy defined short blocks, long blocks and slam them in. I've done heads and cam but not in an empty block.

You need an engine builder mentor.....someone who can help you navigate the process.
Maybe LS1Tech......lots of 6.0L guys over there....camaros & some trucks.
Or youtube.....always good for education....some take questions
(5) How To Build An LS Engine - Assembly Part 1 - YouTube

Thanks, been asking questions on LStech.com too. I think I built my last engine on there. Bottom end is pretty simple. Not much to it.

Thing that keeps me up at bight are the head bolts.

Guess I will find out how the welds work soon enough. They were confident it would be fine. When I read up more there is special equioment and process for just welding cast parts aluminum and steel.

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[1BADI5]

Welding cast can work, but reliability depends on the application and the load that will be applied.

Only thing I have had success with was exhaust manifolds, even then it was a 50/50 shot.

 

[fasteddy]

I agree with 1Bad
I would throw that head away. If the other is fine then its fine. Just buy one head.....on ebay they are $200-250 remfg'd, done?
Your corrosion or cause unknown could have been from overheating or boost or nitrous as the missing casting material is definitely into or very close to the combustion chamber. There had to have been a blown head gasket on that head .....in multiple places.

You're asking the machine shop to replace casting material in at least two critical areas sandwiched between the combustion chamber and waterjacket and head gasket........IMO (and I love you dearly) that's not a good decision.

It may last 2000-3000 miles then it'll just blow and it could contaminate your engine and your cooling system with all kinds of aluminum bits...you could have to tear down and start from scratch. And add to that possibly a new waterpump and radiator.

Its not worth the risk of jeopardizing all your hard work..for $200?

 

[Matthew Jeschke]

I hear ya, I had the machine shop go ahead and do it anyways. They said they fix them all the time for various issues including what I had. It's now completed and I cannot even tell which head formerly had the corrosion. The guy I bought them from said he had a good running motor and bought LS3 heads. The former owner also talks to me fairly regularly. I have him in my phone and chat about building LS stuff so sounds like it was the water jacket only. I have a bit of a case of get it done itis. But it doesn't really make me that nervous. Between them and an old mechanic that I'm friends with. The old mechanic built these trucks at GM till 2004, retired as a quality engineer, as well as flipped lots of cars, built motors, and transmissions in his spare time. He said he's seen and worked with all kinds of crank cases, heads, etc that were welded up despite industry practice is to discard them and he never had problems with the repairs. Long story short, I'm not that nervous about it. What I do want is an excuse to get those 205 AFR heads haha

What I'm currently grappling with are the piston rings. I got drop in rings from Mohle #42157CP. I've been chatting on Ls1Tech and responses are mixed. One guy says don't gap them. They are at 0.012" and 0.016" top/bottom. I looked up factory spec and that's the tightest they can be from factory. I also called Mohle tech support. They were SUPER helpful. The guy on the hotline said don't gap them, it's not necessary.

Lastly, I asked for final opinion at the machine shop. The engine builder said, absolutely gap them. Do 0.020" and 0.026". I see the rule of thumb for gapping is 0.016" and around 0.018". Another guy on LS1 tech did 0.20 and 0.026 for nitrous. I think the only compromise is a inconsequential loss in power of maybe 1 or 2 ft/lbs?

Bit of a mixed bag here. I don't have thermal expansion coefficient for the rings to do the math myself, nor an oven big enough to get the coefficient myself. But if I get the gap wrong the motor will blow up catastrophically haha. Kind of erring on opening them up a bit from what they currently are.

Head pictures below. I cannot even tell which head was which now.

 

[Matthew Jeschke]

using electrolysis to clean up old exhaust manifolds. Figured what they heck, why not. I will ceramic coat them (high temp paint at parts store), then put them on when done.

note to self... I should have taped up gasket mating surfaces as it pitted a bit there, possibly due to hookong up electrodes backwards for a bit before realizong my error but should tape reguardless. I will now need to sand down that surface.

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[George B]

using electrolysis to clean up old exhaust manifolds. Figured what they heck, why not. I will ceramic coat them (high temp paint at parts store), then put them on when done.

note to self... I should have taped up gasket mating surfaces as it pitted a bit there, possibly due to hookong up electrodes backwards for a bit before realizong my error but should tape reguardless. I will now need to sand down that surface.

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Can you give a quick description of this process please?

 

[Matthew Jeschke]

There are tons if tutorials on internet if you search "remove rust eith electrolysis"...

that said,

plastic bucket
sacraficial metal piece
battery charger (dc)
washing soda (salt)

put parts in bucket keeping sacraficial metal away from parts in plastic container

fill with water, and dump in some washing soda

hook up negative to parts with rust

posative to sacraficial metal

takes hours or days depending on your mixuture.

i would goohle process for more details

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