Any interest in 4wd front coilovers to replace tbars?

[FreshLikeOprah]

Just to clarify for everyone. 2wd 1500 trucks use a coil spring front. 4wd and SUVs (regardless of 2wd/4wd) use Torsion.

As for engines. Unless you have a 8.1 in the 2500 Suburbans. All GM V8s weight the same in the GMT800 trucks. Unless you have a Silverado/Sierra 4wd with an L33 aluminum 5.3. Weight is 80lb less.

As for SUVs. Tahoes weigh about 5300 for a 2wd. The trucks and SUVs will weight the same in the front. Most of the SUV weight will be in the rear.

 

[Atomic]

This may be a question most will know, but i do not and if i dont know something i ask regardless of how simple it may be. One can always learn, but what is "Preload" I see that a lot searching springs? Could someone simplify that.

Its basically tightening down the spring so it applies force before it starts compressing. Normally as soon as you apply force to a spring it starts compressing at whatever the spring rate is, so if you put 200lb of force on a 100lb/in spring, it will compress 2". Now if you "preload" the spring 1" by tightening the bottom adjusting cap, it is applying 100lb trying to force the shock open. If you apply the same 200lb force to this preloaded spring it will only move down 1" instead of 2".

The forces must balance on the spring otherwise it will compress or expand. When the spring is not preloaded at all there is 0lb up, if its a 100lb/in spring and you preload it 1" there is now 100lb up, etc. When you apply a force down on the spring, lets say 50lb of force, the 0lb preloaded spring will compress 0.5". The 100lb preloaded spring will not compress at all because the net force is still 50lb upward.

The danger in applying a lot of preload is running into a coil bind issue because of overcompressing the spring. You should really never run into this problem because if you have to preload the spring that much you need a stiffer spring.

Hope that helps.

 

[saif najd]

Just to point something,

Last weekend I was offroading with my friends (FJ owners) and there FJs are already as you want coil spring sys... what I noticed
Is when3n I am driving fast on sand I have more power dew to having the Tbars!

I am losing less momentum and keeping the nose up! For me this more important than the quality of the ride on road!

And if I may say if we are looking for more flex I would suggest finding a way to convert the rear leaf spring to coil! That would be great!

Sorry bro, I was 100% with you but when it comes to driving on sand its another story..

(I am already losing the front shocks fast with the Tbar! I can only imagine what well happen if I used the Coils!)

Sent from my GT-I9505 using Tapatalk 2

 

[Atomic]

I am not sure I understand your comparison...are you saying coil-sprung suspensions arent as good offroad as torsion bars?

 

[bottomline2000]

I think he is and I have never seen anyone opt for torsion bars over a coilover setup..trophy truck, sand rail, baha truck. I don't follow the logic. Torsion bars are severly limited and I don't see any benefit over coilovers.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I747 using Tapatalk

 

[saif najd]

I think he is and I have never seen anyone opt for torsion bars over a coilover setup..trophy truck, sand rail, baha truck. I don't follow the logic. Torsion bars are severly limited and I don't see any benefit over coilovers.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I747 using Tapatalk

I am not sure I understand your comparison...are you saying coil-sprung suspensions arent as good offroad as torsion bars?

I remembered my Ford Ranger 98 it have the same or similar Tbar setup and I remember it was great and took my abuse greatly,

True no rally or rally like truck use is the Tbar setup now! They are using coil but they have long traveling space here it is limited unless we are talking about longer (lower/upper) arms to give good articulation I would say if you added 2 inches level increase it may work great for offroading so the nose well have enough space to dive and go back to normal level without hitting the ground!

And yes if I was planning on a cheap man offroad racing truck (on sand and dirt) I would chose the Tbar setup over coil

This few videos to explain our terrains:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UPW-mYNWMKk&feature=youtube_gdata_player


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3voCi9OH9_Q&feature=youtube_gdata_player

Sent from my GT-I9505 using Tapatalk 2

 

[saif najd]

Again even if the front is "jumpy" I would say the rear would jump highr and may cause you to lose traction or worst losing full control! If the rear was flexible it well reduce the back force (opset direction) and well enjoy better over all driving experience coasting much less time and cash.

The Coils well help those who are seeking the drops more

Sent from my GT-I9505 using Tapatalk 2

 

[livingez_123]

And yes if I was planning on a cheap man offroad racing truck (on sand and dirt) I would chose the Tbar setup over coil

What planet are you from?

 

[saif najd]

Oh, Saudi arabia

Sent from my GT-I9505 using Tapatalk 2

 

[livingez_123]

GM's only reason to use torsion bars in the first place was to save some room for their IFS setup. it made it easier for them to get the front axles to the hubs without having a shock and spring in the way. it has worked for 25 (if it isn't broke, don't fix it mentality)
Most people wouldn't even look at GM IFS truck for building a cheap guy sand/mud truck. The parts just don't hold up under a lot of power, just ask the Dmax guys how long there tie rod ends last. 3/4 link solid axle in the front is the best bang for the buck if you want something that will stay together.
BTW, Atomics setup is still a real good idea for the lowered trucks and the ones that that like to stay at the stock ride height. I will end up with a kit this year. Just need to find a good heavy quality shock. Maybe look into a Fox or King and see if they have something that's short enough to work.

---------- Post added at 08:09 AM ---------- Previous post was at 07:26 AM ----------

Here is a good spring rate calculator....

http://www.hypercoils.com/spring-rate-calculator/

 

[Atomic]

The IFS actually isnt bad as long as you keep the CVs level. Its when guys crank the hell out of the torsion bars and all the geometry is off that you break things constantly. My truck has around 1100rwhp and ive done dozens of full powered 4wd launches on a drag strip with drag radials and never had a problem with the IFS. Only mod I had as tie rod sleeves and I wasnt convinced those were even needed.

Whats wrong with QA1 shocks? Mine work fine...

 

[saif najd]

GM's only reason to use torsion bars in the first place was to save some room for their IFS setup. it made it easier for them to get the front axles to the hubs without having a shock and spring in the way. it has worked for 25 (if it isn't broke, don't fix it mentality)
Most people wouldn't even look at GM IFS truck for building a cheap guy sand/mud truck. The parts just don't hold up under a lot of power, just ask the Dmax guys how long there tie rod ends last. 3/4 link solid axle in the front is the best bang for the buck if you want something that will stay together.
BTW, Atomics setup is still a real good idea for the lowered trucks and the ones that that like to stay at the stock ride height. I will end up with a kit this year. Just need to find a good heavy quality shock. Maybe look into a Fox or King and see if they have something that's short enough to work.

---------- Post added at 08:09 AM ---------- Previous post was at 07:26 AM ----------

Here is a good spring rate calculator....

http://www.hypercoils.com/spring-rate-calculator/

Look, I really didn't expect to face this much of problems with the Tbar! But you addressed alot too, for example:

1- you agreed that Tbars can deliver " reason to use torsion bars in the first place was to save some room for their IFS setup. it made it easier for them to get the front axles to the hubs without having a shock and spring in the way. it has worked for 25 (if it isn't broke, don't fix it mentality)"

2- So where is the problem? You answered

"The parts just don't hold up under a lot of power, just ask the Dmax guys how long there tie rod ends last."

True, I did replaced the ends and every thing else but it hold for a month or so and back to square Zero! My friends know how much effort has been done but again I can't hold it foe example: 2 months ago I replaced the front shocks from stock and used the Monroe sesnatrack now it dead again!! And yes the end are screaming laud!!

3- What we could do?? Your Decision:
"3/4 link solid axle in the front is the best bang for the buck if you want something that will stay together."

Ok, what if someone can't do that? Not possible to find a shop to do such a mod and the needed parts aee not found!?

Thats is the real question, please I am not here to attack I am here to discuss it so I could find a solution just like you

Thanks,,

Sent from my GT-I9505 using Tapatalk 2

---------- Post added at 02:09 PM ---------- Previous post was at 01:50 PM ----------

The IFS actually isnt bad as long as you keep the CVs level. Its when guys crank the hell out of the torsion bars and all the geometry is off that you break things constantly. My truck has around 1100rwhp and ive done dozens of full powered 4wd launches on a drag strip with drag radials and never had a problem with the IFS. Only mod I had as tie rod sleeves and I wasnt convinced those were even needed.

Whats wrong with QA1 shocks? Mine work fine...

Thank you!

Could you please tell me which tie rod sleeves did you use? I think some how you got to part of the solution, I noticed like if I needed something woukd do this jop,,

Sent from my GT-I9505 using Tapatalk 2

 

[livingez_123]

Whats wrong with QA1 shocks? Mine work fine...

Just looking for other options. I have never tried the QA1's, but it's always nice to have other choices.

 

[digitalfiend]

As for SUVs. Tahoes weigh about 5300 for a 2wd. The trucks and SUVs will weight the same in the front. Most of the SUV weight will be in the rear.

I can confirm that 5300. My 2WD 2004 Tahoe weighs 5307 lbs while carrying me, two empty child seats in the middle row, and some assorted things in the glove box and center console.

As far as the weight distribution, I have no idea, but I want to find out. I'm looking for someone in San Antonio that can weigh each corner of my Tahoe at the same time, then I'll know for sure.

 

[bottomline2000]

Moo

Look, I really didn't expect to face this much of problems with the Tbar! But you addressed alot too, for example:

1- you agreed that Tbars can deliver " reason to use torsion bars in the first place was to save some room for their IFS setup. it made it easier for them to get the front axles to the hubs without having a shock and spring in the way. it has worked for 25 (if it isn't broke, don't fix it mentality)"

2- So where is the problem? You answered

"The parts just don't hold up under a lot of power, just ask the Dmax guys how long there tie rod ends last."

True, I did replaced the ends and every thing else but it hold for a month or so and back to square Zero! My friends know how much effort has been done but again I can't hold it foe example: 2 months ago I replaced the front shocks from stock and used the Monroe sesnatrack now it dead again!! And yes the end are screaming laud!!

3- What we could do?? Your Decision:
"3/4 link solid axle in the front is the best bang for the buck if you want something that will stay together."

Ok, what if someone can't do that? Not possible to find a shop to do such a mod and the needed parts aee not found!?

Thats is the real question, please I am not here to attack I am here to discuss it so I could find a solution just like you

Thanks,,

Sent from my GT-I9505 using Tapatalk 2

---------- Post added at 02:09 PM ---------- Previous post was at 01:50 PM ----------



Thank you!

Could you please tell me which tie rod sleeves did you use? I think some how you got to part of the solution, I noticed like if I needed something woukd do this jop,,

Sent from my GT-I9505 using Tapatalk 2

I use the same tie rods as Atomic. They are made by FFR. Much stronger than factory tie rods. Not sure how they would hold up on sand but I remember them being used in the sand dunes here in the U.S. They also have heim joints..


Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I747 using Tapatalk

---------- Post added at 05:00 PM ---------- Previous post was at 04:58 PM ----------

I can confirm that 5300. My 2WD 2004 Tahoe weighs 5307 lbs while carrying me, two empty child seats in the middle row, and some assorted things in the glove box and center console.

As far as the weight distribution, I have no idea, but I want to find out. I'm looking for someone in San Antonio that can weigh each corner of my Tahoe at the same time, then I'll know for sure.

Please confirm ur corner weight when u find out.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I747 using Tapatalk

 

[BaMaDuDe87]

Richard is there a place around here that you know of to find corner weight? Wonder what the diff between 2x and 4x would be.

Sent from my Galaxy Nexus using Tapatalk

 

[saif najd]

Thanks for the FFR info I well try to get one and try it out

Sent from my GT-I9505 using Tapatalk 2

 

[livingez_123]

This will help good with getting the correct spring rate the first time.

http://www.hypercoils.com/spring-rate-calculator/


Mine comes in between 974, 927, 924. I'm sure if I were to be very precise with the weights it would give me a much closer lbs rate.

 

[Atomic]

Brad, I borrowed a friends corner scale to find mine. With me in it it had about 1475 on the front wheels and 950 over the back. Im about 250, and if you guys are measuring 5300 thats about 1350 per tire, so pretty close.

Keep in mind the shocks are at an angle, so you will need a little more than what that calculator suggests, although it gets you in the ballpark.

I used tie rod sleeves like these for a long time: http://www.amazon.com/Rough-Country...d=1388851670&sr=8-10&keywords=tie+rod+sleeves

Never had a problem out of them, but I had to have my truck down for a wheel and ended up doing solid heims just in case. But like I said, I never had a problem out of the sleeves and on a street vehicle, the sleeves on factory tie rods will last much longer. Heims dont like a lot of miles in dusty/dirty enviroments.

The only real requirements for other shocks is the bottom mount needs to be 1/2" diameter for the bolt, which most are i believe. They also need to be 2.5" to fit the spring on there.

 

[livingez_123]

Keep in mind the shocks are at an angle, so you will need a little more than what that calculator suggests, although it gets you in the ballpark.

The spring rate calculator has an input for shock angle. I just put my angle gauge on it and came up with about 70° it was close enough to get a rough estimate. I would pull the tire off and check it at ride height to get the best possible reading. But I was just doing it just to see the ballpark range.
It also has an input for LCA mounting point to center of lower shock mount and LCA mounting point to center of LBJ. And a few other needed measurements and weights.