10Lxx vs 8Lxx vs 6Lxx Replacement for 4L65

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S33k3r

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I have a 4L65e -- on the 2004 Escalade ESV -- that needs to be refurbished/replaced. However, I've been a bit spoiled by the smoothness of the Alison in my 2007 Silverado. Which leads me to ask: Is there anyone that can recommend a 6, 8, or 10 spd upgrade for the 4L65?

There's a company in Houston that is doing the 10L80/90, but for the GMT900+ platforms -- not the GMT800.

Thanks for any help.
 

drdave81

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I've looked into this before. It's way too much of a PITA as it requires a separate TCM to control it, where our 4L60E is controlled by the PCM. Everywhere I've seen, it was determined to not be worth the hassle if it's even realistically possible. I'm pretty sure the communication bus is different too, so that pretty much rules it out. Just get a GOOD upgraded rebuild on yours and be good to go. I got mine bench built with all the upgraded internals for $1250 by a guy in SE Michigan. Call reputable trans shops and get some prices.
 

tooleyondeck

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It's technically doable, but is the juice worth the squeeze of needing custom wiring, mounts, and a standalone TCM to run it? I would suggest that you consider a built 4L80.
 

strutaeng

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There is a guy on the PT.net that tried to swap a 6L80 on his GMT800 Tahoe, but last I heard, he got hung up on the electronics...

Is the Escalade a 2wd? I would also vote 4L80e swap (you probably guessed that from our other conversations on the different threads :) ).

BTW, I got an Allison 5 speed I'm considering swapping (along with a 8.1 from a 2500HD into my Suburban 2500). I got me some books on how to rebuild them and doesn't seem like a super complicated transmission. I "may" open it up just thinker with it...that's not here nor there...but I just realized something along the line of an Allison 6 speed would be sick on a GMT800 SUV, probably with like a 6.6 gas engine(?)

Edit: here's the thread I was thinking about. It's super long and have never really tried reading all of it or the details: https://www.performancetrucks.net/f...neral-discussion-130/using-tcm-2650-a-559049/
 
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S33k3r

S33k3r

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There is a guy on the PT.net that tried to swap a 6L80 on his GMT800 Tahoe, but last I heard, he got hung up on the electronics...

Is the Escalade a 2wd? I would also vote 4L80e swap (you probably guessed that from our other conversations on the different threads :) ).

BTW, I got an Allison 5 speed I'm considering swapping (along with a 8.1 from a 2500HD into my Suburban 2500). I got me some books on how to rebuild them and doesn't seem like a super complicated transmission. I "may" open it up just thinker with it...that's not here nor there...but I just realized something along the line of an Allison 6 speed would be sick on a GMT800 SUV, probably with like a 6.6 gas engine(?)

Edit: here's the thread I was thinking about. It's super long and have never really tried reading all of it or the details: https://www.performancetrucks.net/f...neral-discussion-130/using-tcm-2650-a-559049/
FYI, there is a conversion kit to convert the Allison 5 speed into a 6 speed. If necessary, I can always add a 2" body lift to the Escalade. That would allow it to clear the Allison. I guess I'll see what I find out.
 
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S33k3r

S33k3r

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I've looked into this before. It's way too much of a PITA as it requires a separate TCM to control it, where our 4L60E is controlled by the PCM. Everywhere I've seen, it was determined to not be worth the hassle if it's even realistically possible. I'm pretty sure the communication bus is different too, so that pretty much rules it out. Just get a GOOD upgraded rebuild on yours and be good to go. I got mine bench built with all the upgraded internals for $1250 by a guy in SE Michigan. Call reputable trans shops and get some prices.
There are standalone controllers out there, so I guess I'll do a little more research. I'm probably going with a built 4L65e, anyway, but I can dream.
 
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S33k3r

S33k3r

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It's technically doable, but is the juice worth the squeeze of needing custom wiring, mounts, and a standalone TCM to run it? I would suggest that you consider a built 4L80.
I assumed a standalone controller for the transmission would be required. Thanks, though.
 

justirv

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There are standalone controllers out there, so I guess I'll do a little more research. I'm probably going with a built 4L65e, anyway, but I can dream.
for the 4L60/65/70e I recommend checking out the Sonnax build guides. With the proper parts and builder, these transmissions can still perform.
 

drdave81

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There are standalone controllers out there, so I guess I'll do a little more research. I'm probably going with a built 4L65e, anyway, but I can dream.
There are guys dumping more than 600hp through a well built 60E. What specifically are you looking for? Just more gears?
 

drdave81

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I'm going to start right off by saying I didn't even read through most of this, so I have no idea how much info is actually in here that you may want. I read the first few posts, then jumped to the end, and despite 30 pages, it looks like no one has been successful with a 6L80E swap yet.

 

Joseph Garcia

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As folks above have stated, anything is possible, if you are willing to throw enough money at it, but it would be a real PIA to do this. IMO, you are much better off getting a built 4L60-E transmission or give GearStar a call and discuss options with them.
 
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S33k3r

S33k3r

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There are guys dumping more than 600hp through a well built 60E. What specifically are you looking for? Just more gears?
The transmission has to be rebuilt, for sure. I have a 2500HD with an Allison 6 speed, and it is SO much smoother than anything else I own. So I was thinking a later 6/8/10 speed would both be smoother and hold more power. And if I have to spend a bit extra for the privilege, it is currently in budget.

This explains why the 10 speed is desirable:

6L80 to 10L90 swap? Seeking insight on a 10 speed transmission upgrade

Also, looks like there has been some luck mating a 6L80E to an LS engine:

4l60 to 6l80 swap
6l80e swap help <--Corvette Forum
TCM2650 MECHATRONIC TRANSMISSION CONTROLLER <-- Standalone controller for 6L80/6L90
 
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drdave81

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It was already mated to LS engines. 6L80E was in the 07 and up stuff, which were all LS based engines. Yes you CAN make it work, but not with what you currently have in a GMT800. You will need custom work to do it. It's not a simple swap, and certain things may not work as they should anymore.
Can it be done? Absolutely.
Is it easy? No.
Is it time consuming and expensive? Yes.

I get why people would rather have one over a 4L60E, but most just don't want the headache and dig that deep in their pockets for it. It's not worth it for most people. For you, it may be worth it. But know, it's not easy or cheap, or there would be all kinds of people doing it already. It's not like swapping a 5.3 to a 6.0. You're trying to swap something in that was never built in that generation vehicle and has a totally different wiring architecture and communication system. It's gonna cost you something to do it.
Looks like you're doing the research, so you'll probably learn more than most of us know on it, because we decided after a bit of reading (myself included), it's not worth it to us to do.
 

adventurenali92

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I’d be curious to see if it’s doable and see a process for it…. For “research” of course. But with maybe a more serious ultimate goal…..
 

ivin74

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I have a 4L65e -- on the 2004 Escalade ESV -- that needs to be refurbished/replaced. However, I've been a bit spoiled by the smoothness of the Alison in my 2007 Silverado. Which leads me to ask: Is there anyone that can recommend a 6, 8, or 10 spd upgrade for the 4L65?

There's a company in Houston that is doing the 10L80/90, but for the GMT900+ platforms -- not the GMT800.

Thanks for any help.
Get you a 4L80, those tranys are bulletproof.
 

strutaeng

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@S33k3r is it a number of gears priority or smoothness priority? Both? Durability a concern?

The reason why the 4L65e-family is not as smooth as the other transmissions is because of that band used for the shifting; it's just not the smoothest shifting transmission AFAIK. None of the other transmissions in the discussion use a band (for forwards shifts, at least): Not the 4L80e, Allison 1000 5/6 speed, 6L80/90, and I'm very certain the 8L and 10L don't either. They all use clutch-to-clutch forward shifting. The 6LXX have that Ravigneaux gearset design from the ZF-based transmissions, but still no band. I really don't know anything about the latest 2 transmission generations TBH.

I'd say steer clear of anything 8L, due to all the issues. 10Ls "seems" to be doing "fair" on the GMs better than the Fords, which is kinda ironic because they are a Ford design and Fords seemed to be having more issues. Strange indeed.

I would vote for getting a good builder to rebuild your transmission and keep on truckin'. Use that money on something else.

If you really want more gears, get a GMT900+.

What about GearVendors? Is that an option?
 
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okfoz

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My 2007 Tahoe has the 4 Speed transmission. Honestly, from what I have heard it is a better, more reliable transmission than the 6, 8, or 10 speeds.
 

acesttz

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Several years ago I talked to the guys at True Blue Motorsports about doing this in my 2007. They make a kit to do this. I did not end up doing this conversion because I ran across a deal on a 2013.

 
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S33k3r

S33k3r

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@S33k3r is it a number of gears priority or smoothness priority? Both? Durability a concern?

The reason why the 4L65e-family is not as smooth as the other transmissions is because of that band used for the shifting; it's just not the smoothest shifting transmission AFAIK. None of the other transmissions in the discussion use a band (for forwards shifts, at least): Not the 4L80e, Allison 1000 5/6 speed, 6L80/90, and I'm very certain the 8L and 10L don't either. They all use clutch-to-clutch forward shifting. The 6LXX have that Ravigneaux gearset design from the ZF-based transmissions, but still no band. I really don't know anything about the latest 2 transmission generations TBH.

I'd say steer clear of anything 8L, due to all the issues. 10Ls "seems" to be doing "fair" on the GMs better than the Fords, which is kinda ironic because they are a Ford design and Fords seemed to be having more issues. Strange indeed.

I would vote for getting a good builder to rebuild your transmission and keep on truckin'. Use that money on something else.

If you really want more gears, get a GMT900+.

What about GearVendors? Is that an option?
Ha! This really helped, thanks.
 
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S33k3r

S33k3r

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I've pulled the trigger on a 4L65E rebuild. It's going to be a little beefier than stock, but not by much. The next level up was a $900 increase... I suggested to my builder that the $900 wasn't in my budget and upgrading me for free was likely not conducive to paying his bills and he agreed... :) While he's in there... He's replacing my rear main seal, and I am waiting on an estimate to replace the pan gasket. You have to pull the transmission and transfer case for both repairs...

Now, firstly, I want to thank everyone that responded, especially @strutaeng for mentioning gearvendors, @acesttz for mentioning True Blue Motorsports, and @drdave81 and @strutaeng for mentioning performancetrucks.net. That said, I appreciate everyone throwing the brakes on to help prevent me from doing something stupid. But it is frustrating to ask for information and simply told it is a bad idea. It is much *less* frustrating for people to offer up information where people have considered/tried to do it and gave up or failed. To that end, I'm adding what I found in case anyone else tries to look into this, so they will know what they are up against:

***** ***** ***** ***** ***** ***** ***** ***** ***** ***** ***** ***** ***** ***** ***** ***** ***** ***** ***** *****
The 6Lxx transmission were different than to 4Lxx transmissions in that the transmission controls were actually built into the 6Lxx transmissions. That meant that using a standalone transmission controller was almost impossible, because it would still need to talk to the TCM *in* the 6Lxx.

The 8Lxx and 10Lxx were problematic -- as replacements for the 4Lxx -- because they, too, had their own, separate transmission control modules (TCM). This mean R&D had to be invested in deciphering how their TCM's worked so there could be translation between the year models for which they were made, and the year models for which the 4Lxx were made. As of this update, there is a company out of Houston, Texas that will do the conversion for GMT900s, but not the GMT800s. There was a commentator on the installer's FB page saying the GMT800s were for the "poors" or close enough. So I suspect these guys are never going to build a standalone controller for the GMT800s.

Ultimately, as others have said, anything is possible if you spend enough time and money. But my time was in short supply this go-around, even though I did have *some* coin to spend. So I've got a built 4L65E, or will have in a couple of days.
***** ***** ***** ***** ***** ***** ***** ***** ***** ***** ***** ***** ***** ***** ***** ***** ***** ***** ***** *****
 

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