Hp tuners, torque management clarity

[mikez71]

yep tiny lurch, at low throttle.

 

[LSxBakakos]

yep tiny lurch, at low throttle.

If I remember correctly thats when a tuner was saying if it feels lurchy or like rowing a boat shift timing is off/unsupported by pressure.

Unless its a light bump/crisp shift due to quick shift timing, then id consider that a positive

Driving mine home last night I caught a part throttle clip. Mine has never shifted so quick in the part throttle area or like a built trans so at least im closer to this being finalized.

 

[LSxBakakos]

Also from what I understand(and ill test this theory) now that adaptives are now settling in firmness is increasing to where ill be bringing it back down. My 2-3 feels like a rowing the boat lurch/shift at wot and apparently it "may" be due to shift control terminate

 

[LSxBakakos]

Little bit of info here for everyone, first update the 2-3 now is fine? So im giving it more time before making adjustments and will hopefully get a wot run later

Apparently these 6l80es are smarter than i knew and require 100-200mi to fully learn new clutch characteristics from fast adapts, so for everyone else out there have more patience than myself lol. Apparently "full" adaptives take almost 400 mi which is almost on the allison status.

Im almost wondering (and maybe someone has an answer for this) im on my second built allison in my duramax and after a fresh trans we have to do TAPS relearn, (total adaptive pressure system) this procedure takes 1000mi to fully set in, full of clanks bangs and feeling like youve left the trans at a stop light. After 1000 mi you can start by doing 1/4 throttle 0-60 pulls until theres no flare left in the shift, then half until no flare, 3/4 and so on, once they click off perfect wot you restart on the higher horsepower tune and repeat. Im wondering if we need to do the same as far as low throttle inputs working to high

Lastly the 09 ive been tuning is wild, i also made the max torque disabled and speed cntrl immediate. His trans tune has 100% tm, engine side previous tuner deleted. Ive essentially made him a mirrored file to mine on trans function. 1-2 will chirp the tires, his 2-3 is violent to the point of where its going to tear things up. The torque factor and adder sections are different than mine are which im unsure if its the previous tuner or his OS so ill do some digging when im around the computer next

 

[LSxBakakos]

Think im going to leave it alone now, definitely like how it's shifting. 2-3 has cleared up substantially

 

[mikez71]

Chirp them tires!

Apparently these 6l80es are smarter than i knew and require 100-200mi to fully learn new clutch characteristics from fast adapts, so for everyone else out there have more patience than myself lol. Apparently "full" adaptives take almost 400 mi which is almost on the allison status.

That's a lotta miles!

Lastly the 09 ive been tuning is wild, i also made the max torque disabled and speed cntrl immediate. His trans tune has 100% tm, engine side previous tuner deleted. Ive essentially made him a mirrored file to mine on trans function. 1-2 will chirp the tires, his 2-3 is violent to the point of where its going to tear things up. The torque factor and adder sections are different than mine are which im unsure if its the previous tuner or his OS so ill do some digging when im around the computer next

Looking at an '09 repository file, the transmission settings are indeed different. As you say torque factor adder is 0 for 1-2 and 2-3..
Torque adders are different, TCC apply ramp, inertia factor, transition time, desired torque output, pressure and volume presets, desired shift time, sync downskip.. A few more things things...

Curious about the changes.. Especially Torque adders for 1-2 and 2-3 from '09..
There are probably are other settings, not shown by HPTuners, which might affect some of the differences..
Looks like '09, '10, '11, '12-'14 are all different..

 

[LSxBakakos]

Chirp them tires!


That's a lotta miles!


Looking at an '09 repository file, the transmission settings are indeed different. As you say torque factor adder is 0 for 1-2 and 2-3..
Torque adders are different, TCC apply ramp, inertia factor, transition time, desired torque output, pressure and volume presets, desired shift time, sync downskip.. A few more things things...

Curious about the changes.. Especially Torque adders for 1-2 and 2-3 from '09..
There are probably are other settings, not shown by HPTuners, which might affect some of the differences..
Looks like '09, '10, '11, '12-'14 are all different..

I as well am curious on those changes, I was told 12+ 6l80es do have different "programming" mechanically/electronically. What those changes are im unsure of but its wild how a mirrored tune is so much different. When I saw the factor/adder change I was like whoa, I need to further investigate. He has less miles of relearn on mine but I do feel as if my trans shifts better/cleaner at least currently. But considering hes one of my best friends im still going to try to perfect his tune as well

 

[dkad260]

Nice chirp!

It actually looks like a small delay to engage 2nd, like it reached the RPM, and waited...unless the framerate of the video is obscuring the actual shift.

Learning alot with this thread, if I had to hazard a guess, and this is based on IF there was a delay, would or could this be attributed to the time to fill the piston/clutch?

Edit to add, driving with the Tech 2, my 1-2 is around .45 sec and the rest are around .25-28 so maybe there's something else going on.

 

[LSxBakakos]

Nice chirp!

It actually looks like a small delay to engage 2nd, like it reached the RPM, and waited...unless the framerate of the video is obscuring the actual shift.

Learning alot with this thread, if I had to hazard a guess, and this is based on IF there was a delay, would or could this be attributed to the time to fill the piston/clutch?

Edit to add, driving with the Tech 2, my 1-2 is around .45 sec and the rest are around .25-28 so maybe there's something else going on.

The video absolutely looks that way but im hoping its a Snapchat issue vs reality. Im trying not to wail on it but I am curious lol. Ive definitely been learning a lot myself, and if there is a delay id be clueless on where to look at this point unless its ecm tm related(i think spark torque/spark reduction) are the only ecm related tm left, or its adaptives

Also idk its authenticity but I saw this on a tuners video

 

[SpareParts]

The video absolutely looks that way but im hoping its a Snapchat issue vs reality. Im trying not to wail on it but I am curious lol. Ive definitely been learning a lot myself, and if there is a delay id be clueless on where to look at this point unless its ecm tm related(i think spark torque/spark reduction) are the only ecm related tm left, or its adaptives

Also idk its authenticity but I saw this on a tuners video

I changed mine to immediate per Silversurfer77 video's

 

[dkad260]

i think spark torque/spark reduction) are the only ecm related tm left, or its adaptives

Doesn't look like a ramp up delay after the 1-2, it looks like a delay of engagement into 2nd.

Like it reaches desired RPM, holds RPM, then shifts. Again, could be the framerate buffer but the 2-3 looks better.

 

[LSxBakakos]

I changed mine to immediate per Silversurfer77 video's

Whoever brought it up on here i did as well, just thought the comment below and silversurfers response was interesting and or like he didnt know what that function did

Doesn't look like a ramp up delay after the 1-2, it looks like a delay of engagement into 2nd.

Like it reaches desired RPM, holds RPM, then shifts. Again, could be the framerate buffer but the 2-3 looks better.

Ive still yet to go wot again, im hoping its the video but if not i have no idea where that may be coming from. Shift transition is reduced 30%, 1-2 is set to .20 all the way across, I believe torque factor was a 20% change. Adder my values were already at 1.00 and I didnt know what direction to go. I did try .50 for 1-2 .20 for 2-3 .10 for 3-4 but I made so many changes its hard to say what did it. I almosr feel like my original video (mirror view) was fastest 1-2 more sluggish 2-3 and so on. But that was adder and factor both at 1.00

 

[mikez71]

Odd, I'm not seeing the delay into 2nd you guys are talking about..?

Right, some of silversurfer's explanations are his THEORY as mentioned in his comments.
That said, he offers more detailed/explained theory than anyone else.

A lot of other videos seem to go off the descriptions in HPTuners software, so it seems they haven't really tested much..
Why I like the SIU videos (plus his explanation of transmission operation since I don't know anything)..
Yet even then, a lot of his testing ends up being inconclusive..

Make fewer changes at a time to test.. otherwise you're wondering what did what.. (Been there!)

One easy thing to test, though you may not want to, is the neutral skip downshift.. (set disable)
I believe that only affects when you drop the hammer in 5th or 6th.. (which people say is NOT good for the transmission?)
What else are you going to do when you're cruising along and decide to go?
It was smoother/less dramatic, than having neutral skip down enabled.. It FEELS like it's easier on the transmission.. ?

You've got me curious about speed ctrl terminate (immediate). Will test and see what I can notice.. (in about a week..)

 

[dkad260]

Odd, I'm not seeing the delay into 2nd you guys are talking about..

It seems more audible than trying to follow the tach needle. Again, it could be completely normal, I know my stock tune looks to have a slightly longer 1-2 shift then the rest.

 

[LSxBakakos]

Odd, I'm not seeing the delay into 2nd you guys are talking about..?

Right, some of silversurfer's explanations are his THEORY as mentioned in his comments.
That said, he offers more detailed/explained theory than anyone else.

A lot of other videos seem to go off the descriptions in HPTuners software, so it seems they haven't really tested much..
Why I like the SIU videos (plus his explanation of transmission operation since I don't know anything)..
Yet even then, a lot of his testing ends up being inconclusive..

Make fewer changes at a time to test.. otherwise you're wondering what did what.. (Been there!)

One easy thing to test, though you may not want to, is the neutral skip downshift.. (set disable)
I believe that only affects when you drop the hammer in 5th or 6th.. (which people say is NOT good for the transmission?)
What else are you going to do when you're cruising along and decide to go?
It was smoother/less dramatic, than having neutral skip down enabled.. It FEELS like it's easier on the transmission.. ?

You've got me curious about speed ctrl terminate (immediate). Will test and see what I can notice.. (in about a week..)

Siu does do a good job explaining what function does what, and the testing results. He does break down what actually makes a difference vs others.

As far as making small changes every time apparently I just over commit to them and send it

There were 3 i disabled (top right) that im spacing on. It was something CT downshift etc. That did make a huge difference "rolling" and standing on it,especially from a 50mph hit

I did find something helpful last night scrolling the hpt forum about speed cntrl function

Immediate is preferred for faster, firmer shifts, where "Torque Ramp" is designed for a smoother, slower torque re-application. Heavy vehicle, towing, daily or where longevity is key is where I would use torque ramp vs immediate, more performance biased where shift quality is needed i would use immediate

It seems more audible than trying to follow the tach needle. Again, it could be completely normal, I know my stock tune looks to have a slightly longer 1-2 shift then the rest.

I do think there is a small delay, honestly i may try to set torque factor back to 1.00 and play with torque adder instead, I also may take 10% less transition time out of it. Im going to drive it until next Thursday, I do believe it's still in its adptives since my WOT 2-3 has been either perfect or the boat row feel which makes me think its still learning. Both times my Allison did the same, just goofy behavior

 

[mikez71]

As far as making small changes every time apparently I just over commit to them and send it

Ha! I know the feeling! Eventually some will stick and you'll reduce the number.. And as you mention kinda of space the changes so they are discernable.

There were 3 i disabled (top right) that im spacing on. It was something CT downshift etc. That did make a huge difference "rolling" and standing on it,especially from a 50mph hi

CT downshift inertia factor, I thought was Closed Throttle only. The torque values are almost all negative, though do go above 0 a tiny bit..
I did change it to 2018 settings for awhile.. Thought I liked it more, but have recently changed back and I'm not so sure (like so many changes)
The '09 also had different settings there..

Immediate is preferred for faster, firmer shifts, where "Torque Ramp" is designed for a smoother, slower torque re-application. Heavy vehicle, towing, daily or where longevity is key is where I would use torque ramp vs immediate, more performance biased where shift quality is needed i would use immediate

Good to know! In that case, I am fine with it on torque ramp..

 

[SpareParts]

Yeah, I'm changing mine back to Torque Ramp.

 

[LSxBakakos]

Ha! I know the feeling! Eventually some will stick and you'll reduce the number.. And as you mention kinda of space the changes so they are discernable.


CT downshift inertia factor, I thought was Closed Throttle only. The torque values are almost all negative, though do go above 0 a tiny bit..
I did change it to 2018 settings for awhile.. Thought I liked it more, but have recently changed back and I'm not so sure (like so many changes)
The '09 also had different settings there..


Good to know! In that case, I am fine with it on torque ramp..

At least im not the only one that does that. Ill add the screenshot the one guy posted on goatbuilts video, it actually makes sense and I may try that before making the change back to ramp.

Yeah, I'm changing mine back to Torque Ramp.

I have one more change to make, and if im not content thats where ill be stopping

 

[mikez71]

Yea, going back and forth is the only way to verify!

At some point, hopefully, we say 'good enough'..

Especially when it's too hard to tell any difference..

But I have a little more tweaking to try..

 

[LSxBakakos]

Yea, going back and forth is the only way to verify!

At some point, hopefully, we say 'good enough'..

Especially when it's too hard to tell any difference..

But I have a little more tweaking to try..

I couldn't agree more, in a way its the process of elimination and also will be a lesson on what really does what

My issue is my OCD wants to constantly improve what already may work well. Bur after thia last or second to last change ill hopefully keep it tnere for awhile lol