DOD / AFM delete parts

[j91z28d1]

I was just about to say, if no one wants to waste time reading it, it says exactly what foggy said. vvt is worth about 15lbs of tq at 1500-2k ish.

from what I understand there's not really any tuning needed for the vvt on a stock non afm cam or even a small truck cam. if you did go bigger places like tsp include the map you can copy and paste into your vvt map in hp.

TSP Stage 2 VVT L99 Camshaft

NEW Texas Speed Stage 2 VVT-2.2 L99 Camshaft

www.texas-speed.com

Thanks to the Superflow 902 dyno, Texas Speed is the only company that currently offers a VVT camshaft with a phaser table included to properly tune the camshaft once it's installed in your Camaro!

 

[Marky Dissod]

I respectfully disagree.

I don't see the argument Marky Dissod.

I don't see where you think VVT can ADVANCE the cam timing.

Haven't disagreed with you. I never asserted the GM LS VVT advances timing. Clarified for anyone ELSE reading.

 

[tooleyondeck]

I think I missed an acronym here... TC? Torque Convertor? Is there a way to do it right myself? HP TUner?

Correct, TC = Torque Converter. If you already have a billet one with factory stall then that’s even more reason to consider a stock converter cam so you don’t have to go buy another one with a higher stall.

You “can” buy an HP Tuners MPVI and tune your car yourself but I would highly advise against it as it’s not as simple as writing script or code. You can literally destroy your engine if you don’t know what you’re doing.

Most dyno tuners will charge between $4-600 depending on where you live and could be a bit more depending on your mods.

As you can see from above, the community is divided on retaining VVT. My suggestion to delete it was based on keeping things simpler and opening you to more tuner options. Just make sure whatever path you decide to go you stick to it. Changing it up halfway will result in a lot of wasted $ and time.

Can’t wait to see what you decide!

 

[Geotrash]

As you can see from above, the community is divided on retaining VVT. My suggestion to delete it was based on keeping things simpler and opening you to more tuner options. Just make sure whatever path you decide to go you stick to it. Changing it up halfway will result in a lot of wasted $ and time.

Agreed. For my part, I opted to get rid of VVT on my 2012 for simplicity and durability reasons. Haven't missed it at all.

 

[JKaechler]

I am leaning towards doing the whole cam swap thing, and then getting black bear involved. In theory i should be able to drive immediately after all the installs, just on the factory programming.. do the logging and send the data off to black bear and they will do the difficult part.

cost wise, they are a bit higher than buying an HPTuner... but the learning curve is steep, and the potential for damage is steep too.

I think my theory relies on not going to extreme with any change i make... stick with one of the kits aimed at 'truck' usage. VVT / non VVT seems to be of lesser importance, as long as whichever kit i choose addresses it


Here is a thought. do i need to buy the blackbear package and get a data scan done before i do the install? or do i wait until i complete the install and have it driving again, then buy the blackbear and scan?

 

[Geotrash]

I am leaning towards doing the whole cam swap thing, and then getting black bear involved. In theory i should be able to drive immediately after all the installs, just on the factory programming.. do the logging and send the data off to black bear and they will do the difficult part.

cost wise, they are a bit higher than buying an HPTuner... but the learning curve is steep, and the potential for damage is steep too.

I think my theory relies on not going to extreme with any change i make... stick with one of the kits aimed at 'truck' usage. VVT / non VVT seems to be of lesser importance, as long as whichever kit i choose addresses it


Here is a thought. do i need to buy the blackbear package and get a data scan done before i do the install? or do i wait until i complete the install and have it driving again, then buy the blackbear and scan?

It’s best to get a scan on the thing before you do the delete, so they can have a reference point on your rig. Then send them the cam specs and they’ll get you a startup tune. Once it’s running you’ll do another scan for them on the prescribed drive cycle and they’ll send you the final tune. Works great!

 

[Marky Dissod]

do i need to buy the blackbear package and get a data scan done before i do the install?
or do i wait until i complete the install and have it driving again, then buy the blackbear and scan?

Firstly, the one best qualified to answer this question is
@BlackBearPerf
2ndly, I doubt that'd be the case if your ecu & tcu are any version of OE - BlackBear should have OE configurations on file.
If it's NOT OE, then I'd bet that you should find a way to provide that to BlackBear.
Maybe send them your Accell SuperTuner, so they can have a good look inside it?

 

[Geotrash]

Firstly, the one best qualified to answer this question is
@BlackBearPerf
2ndly, I doubt that'd be the case if your ecu & tcu are any version of OE - BlackBear should have OE configurations on file.
If it's NOT OE, then I'd bet that you should find a way to provide that to BlackBear.
Maybe send them your Accell SuperTuner, so they can have a good look inside it?

Agreed. Just sharing the process I followed when I did my cam swap. Black Bear suggested the approach, so that's what I did.

 

[BlackBearPerf]

I am leaning towards doing the whole cam swap thing, and then getting black bear involved. In theory i should be able to drive immediately after all the installs, just on the factory programming.. do the logging and send the data off to black bear and they will do the difficult part.

cost wise, they are a bit higher than buying an HPTuner... but the learning curve is steep, and the potential for damage is steep too.

I think my theory relies on not going to extreme with any change i make... stick with one of the kits aimed at 'truck' usage. VVT / non VVT seems to be of lesser importance, as long as whichever kit i choose addresses it


Here is a thought. do i need to buy the blackbear package and get a data scan done before i do the install? or do i wait until i complete the install and have it driving again, then buy the blackbear and scan?

We would love to help you out with the tuning! The best way would be to purchase our AutoCal, download the current tune files from the vehicle, and do a data log. When sending in the files, you can provide us with the cam specs and any other pertinent information related to the swap. Then you can do the swap, load the custom tune files, and do another data log. We will use that data log to further dial in the tune. The other way to do it is to download the tune files and email them to us to build a base tune for you. Then you can flash in the custom tune files and data log. As @Geotrash mentioned, it is nice to see a data log first in case other issues need to be addressed before the tuning.

 

[Coolman1987us]

@BlackBearPerf

What if I already have an mpvi3 from HP tuners. Can you guys work with that or do I need the autocal hardware?

 

[JKaechler]

Rolling back around to one of the original points.

I am looking at the kit from AMS racing
Link
This is using the 'Truck Norris NSR' cam, and includes lifters and trays. It is a 3-bolt cam, so VVT deletion would be involved here.
One common theme in other reviews, including the one that the other user linked at the top of this thread is to be sure and get proper GM trays. What is AMS Racing including in their kits? How can I look at them and verify that they are the real deal? I certainly dont object even to going to the local Chevy parts dept and buying a set of trays directly if i need to. But I dont know what to look at on the ones from the kit and determine if they are good to go.

Same Question on the Lifters. AMS has what appears to be their own lifter, which is cheaper. And they offer Chevy LS7 lifters. This strikes me as a place where you DO NOT want to save a few pennies. A failed lifter is an engine full of shrapnel


How do I know that I have the right lifters? identifying marks? casting numbers?

The cam in question is 'no springs required' but my springs have 240 thousand miles on them. I would likely pickup a new set of stock springs and seals just to be complete. and lap the valves while its apart as well.



I am working thru the process of determining if the kit route is more cost effective than simply buying the parts individually... while also being sure to get the best parts for long life.

 

[BlackBearPerf]

@BlackBearPerf

What if I already have an mpvi3 from HP tuners. Can you guys work with that or do I need the autocal hardware?

We use EFILive exclusively for tuning so we are not able to provide tuning via HPTuners. We would need you to go with our AutoCal option.

 

[Geotrash]

Rolling back around to one of the original points.

I am looking at the kit from AMS racing
Link
This is using the 'Truck Norris NSR' cam, and includes lifters and trays. It is a 3-bolt cam, so VVT deletion would be involved here.

Note that with an LSA of 107, that cam will have a pronounced chop at idle. This will impact brake vacuum, and you'll also need a higher stall TC to keep the idle surging at traffic lights from driving you crazy and wearing out your right leg from the pressure on the brake pedal.

One common theme in other reviews, including the one that the other user linked at the top of this thread is to be sure and get proper GM trays. What is AMS Racing including in their kits? How can I look at them and verify that they are the real deal? I certainly dont object even to going to the local Chevy parts dept and buying a set of trays directly if i need to. But I dont know what to look at on the ones from the kit and determine if they are good to go.

Both Summit and BTR sell GM trays for like 10 bucks each. I also don't see the VVT delete timing cover in that kit, so you'll need that too. This is why I assembled my own kit - every other kit I found was either missing something important I needed, or I couldn't verify the pedigree of the parts.

Same Question on the Lifters. AMS has what appears to be their own lifter, which is cheaper. And they offer Chevy LS7 lifters. This strikes me as a place where you DO NOT want to save a few pennies. A failed lifter is an engine full of shrapnel

It's possible that they're the same lifter, just private labeled. Melling is the OEM manufacturer for most of GM's lifters, so you can sometimes find a deal on those. I went with the Chevrolet Performance lifters for the same reason you mentioned: reliability and durability.

How do I know that I have the right lifters? identifying marks? casting numbers?

I measured each of mine with a caliper and from the first supplier I bought from, TWO were out of spec so far they wouldn't fit into the bores. This is another reason I went with Chevrolet Performance lifters - quality control. I sent the others back.

The cam in question is 'no springs required' but my springs have 240 thousand miles on them. I would likely pickup a new set of stock springs and seals just to be complete. and lap the valves while its apart as well.

The Truck Norris cam is .552 lift, which is too much for stock springs unless you get the upgraded springs from GM. I went with BTR beehives good for .560.

 

[JKaechler]

Note that with an LSA of 107, that cam will have a pronounced chop at idle. This will impact brake vacuum, and you'll also need a higher stall TC to keep the idle surging at traffic lights from driving you crazy and wearing out your right leg from the pressure on the brake pedal.

See, this is why i am asking a billion questions... I didnt know that lobe separation angle had so much to do with vacuum, and that has led me down yet another rabbit hole.

Leads me to this article

Lobe Separation and idle characteristics

www.hotrodders.com

valves open at the same time, at lower rpms, leads to effectively making a huge vacuum leak with every cycle of every cylinder.

 

[Geotrash]

See, this is why i am asking a billion questions... I didnt know that lobe separation angle had so much to do with vacuum, and that has led me down yet another rabbit hole.

Leads me to this article

Lobe Separation and idle characteristics

www.hotrodders.com

valves open at the same time, at lower rpms, leads to effectively making a huge vacuum leak with every cycle of every cylinder.

Pardon me sir, but would you mind if I try pouring on some gasoline to get that fire going? This book is worth its weight in GOLD:

https://a.co/d/0tayrWG

 

[JKaechler]

Pardon me sir, but would you mind if I try pouring on some gasoline to get that fire going? This book is worth its weight in GOLD:

Hallelujah! Reference material. Added to this coming payday's shopping list.

 

[fasteddy]

Congrats getting to 240K! Original Trans? Your tic is probably not an AFM thing, maybe just normal wear and tear on a 240K engine. LOL. I would not do major surgery (which DOD delete is) to a 240K engine. It's basically the labor associated with heads and cam. You may want to consider a crate 6.0 or 6.2 long block W/O DOD. IMHO its less risk and less work and much more benefit. Or just rip out the 5.3 and have it rebuilt w/o DOD. To me unbolting and engine is much less work and less technical work than heads, cam, lifters, gaskets, bolts, tools, and proper torque settings bla, bla, bla. Cuz at 240K miles you should at least get the heads rebuilt when they come off. Like before you are done with the DOD on the 240K engine you'll be into it for $1500-$1700. But I've bought rebuilt 6.0 long blocks for $2500 and most come with a warranty.

 

[JKaechler]

To me unbolting and engine is much less work and less technical work than heads, cam, lifters, gaskets, bolts, tools, and proper torque settings bla, bla, bla.

Amusingly I actually feel exactly opposite! I would rather tear down to the heads than deal with the stupid transmission removal, and its worse with the transfer case involved. Pulling off the inner fender liners allows pretty free access to the heads from each side.

The Trans was rebuilt about 20k miles ago.

 

[fasteddy]

It depends what you feel comfortable with....I guess. I just wouldn't put a new cam in a 240K engine. And I don't pull the trans to replace the engine. I just unbolt it from the Tq converter and the trans, Engine mounts, coolant hoses, harness connections.....and pull! It's just a big heavy part. Yours I would drive until it stopped running, then I would have it rebuilt.

 

[JKaechler]

Pardon me sir, but would you mind if I try pouring on some gasoline to get that fire going? This book is worth its weight in GOLD:

Indeed this is a whole pile of usefull information. Answered a lot of questions about rocker arms that i had not yet gotten around to asking as well.

In other news, I went ahead and got the BlackBear AutoCal. Did the initial scan and datalogging to have it tuned in its current form, and to provide a baseline for the after.

Now I am eagerly awaiting their reply to perform a brain transplant on the engine/trans.