Best valve springs?

[Rocket Man]

I have Vinci dual springs on both mine, along with their cams, hardened pushrods, Vitron seals, and if you really want peace of mind get some Yella Terra shaft-mount full roller rockers like I have on my 02. They’re badass. Roger Vinci sells them too, he co-engineered them.

 

[swathdiver]

...dual springs have no downside that I know of besides a slightly higher initial cost.

They don't like to rev as high or as quick, that's why the LSs use the beehives. ALL of my prior GM cars, even ones that rarely saw 5000 rpms had dual valve springs.

 

[Geotrash]

Since you'll have the heads off, may I suggest a shave to get the chambers down to 65 or even 64 CC and some thinner head gaskets to net .035" quench?

Yes, I'm open to that - thanks for suggesting it. Has it added to your engine's performance appreciably?

 

[Geotrash]

I have Vinci dual springs on both mine, along with their cams, hardened pushrods, Vitron seals, and if you really want peace of mind get some Yella Terra shaft-mount full roller rockers like I have on my 02. They’re badass. Roger Vinci sells them too, he co-engineered them.

Thanks for the pics. I like the Whipple

Saw the Yella Terra stuff on his site. Pricey. Now you have me thinking about power adders

 

[iamdub]

Yes, I'm open to that - thanks for suggesting it. Has it added to your engine's performance appreciably?

Since I put in a performance cam and looser converter when I did all that, I can't tell (feel) what the shave and thinner gaskets did exclusively. But, there's no way that they didn't make any positive change. Raising the compression boosts power and torque across the entire rev range. It's also "free" mod since the heads should be getting a cleaning pass when they're off. If the machinist has them set up for the cleaning pass already, it only takes a minute to shave off a little more.

Disregard the numbers I rattled off earlier, that was my 5.3 brain speaking. Your 6.2s are advertised and having 10.5:1 CR and 70cc combustion chamber volume. Raising the compression to around 11 would be nice. 91 octane or higher would be mandatory, although you should be running that already. If you get a mild performance cam, the raised compression would counter the possible slight loss of low-end power it may cause. It'd be a gain regardless.

At least with the 5.3 and probably most any LS, the chamber volume is usually larger than advertised, by 1-2cc. So, even if milling the heads is done just to get the chamber down to spec, it'll be an improvement. I don't know what the stock quench height is on these engines, but .036" is widely known as ideal. Tighter quench promotes more efficient fuel burning. Like the raised compression, this mod wouldn't cost much either. You'll already be needing head gaskets, which are around $60 for the pair. Cometics are about $60 EACH, but that's still only an extra $60 added to the project.

 

[Geotrash]

Since I put in a performance cam and looser converter when I did all that, I can't tell (feel) what the shave and thinner gaskets did exclusively. But, there's no way that they didn't make any positive change. Raising the compression boosts power and torque across the entire rev range. It's also "free" mod since the heads should be getting a cleaning pass when they're off. If the machinist has them set up for the cleaning pass already, it only takes a minute to shave off a little more.

Disregard the numbers I rattled off earlier, that was my 5.3 brain speaking. Your 6.2s are advertised and having 10.5:1 CR and 70cc combustion chamber volume. Raising the compression to around 11 would be nice. 91 octane or higher would be mandatory, although you should be running that already. If you get a mild performance cam, the raised compression would counter the possible slight loss of low-end power it may cause. It'd be a gain regardless.

At least with the 5.3 and probably most any LS, the chamber volume is usually larger than advertised, by 1-2cc. So, even if milling the heads is done just to get the chamber down to spec, it'll be an improvement. I don't know what the stock quench height is on these engines, but .036" is widely known as ideal. Tighter quench promotes more efficient fuel burning. Like the raised compression, this mod wouldn't cost much either. You'll already be needing head gaskets, which are around $60 for the pair. Cometics are about $60 EACH, but that's still only an extra $60 added to the project.

Thanks for this helpful detail, Chris. I think this is a mod I would like to make. I always run premium fuel anyway and as you say, I'll have the heads at the machine shop for cleaning and finishing anyway.

Since I'm new to the Richmond area, I'm still figuring out where the good performance and machine shops are. But we're about 5 minutes from the Virginia International Raceway, so the performance car culture here is alive and well. Found a good performance shop on Tuesday for the tune and got a good lead on a machine shop from a neighbor yesterday. My next call this morning will be to Vinci. And so it begins...

 

[iamdub]

Thanks for this helpful detail, Chris. I think this is a mod I would like to make. I always run premium fuel anyway and as you say, I'll have the heads at the machine shop for cleaning and finishing anyway.

Since I'm new to the Richmond area, I'm still figuring out where the good performance and machine shops are. But we're about 5 minutes from the Virginia International Raceway, so the performance car culture here is alive and well. Found a good performance shop on Tuesday for the tune and got a good lead on a machine shop from a neighbor yesterday. My next call this morning will be to Vinci. And so it begins...

You're gearing up for some good stuff!

For the machining, my suggestion is to ask the speed shops who handles their stuff. You should get plenty of references. The LS, using MLS gaskets, requires a very smooth finish (called "RA" for "Roughness Average") of around 30 or lower. Most any machine shop would know this, but there are some that would leave a finish that'd rival that from a wood rasp. IMO, a ~$100 shave and extra $60 for the gaskets is a huge bang-for-the-buck upgrade that you'll feel. The extra torque from the raised compression and better efficiency from the tighter quench coupled with a cam that starts to come alive around 1500-2000 RPM will help your cruising power. This will lead to less required throttle input which means better cruising/highway MPG. I gained about 3MPG at 70 with mine. Yeah, I now get BETTER MPG than I did with AFM.

 

[Geotrash]

You're gearing up for some good stuff!

For the machining, my suggestion is to ask the speed shops who handles their stuff. You should get plenty of references. The LS, using MLS gaskets, requires a very smooth finish (called "RA" for "Roughness Average") of around 30 or lower. Most any machine shop would know this, but there are some that would leave a finish that'd rival that from a wood rasp. IMO, a ~$100 shave and extra $60 for the gaskets is a huge bang-for-the-buck upgrade that you'll feel. The extra torque from the raised compression and better efficiency from the tighter quench coupled with a cam that starts to come alive around 1500-2000 RPM will help your cruising power. This will lead to less required throttle input which means better cruising/highway MPG. I gained about 3MPG at 70 with mine. Yeah, I now get BETTER MPG than I did with AFM.

Very helpful guidance once again, Chris. Thank you. I'm corresponding with Roger as I write and will order the cam, lifters, trays, springs, etc. as soon as he's able to work up the quote. I sent him all of my details about the way I use the truck and prefs, and he recommended the M/T 578/587/213/222/115+3A cam. I'll lose the VVT but that's okay for me. Such a pleasure to be able to work with someone who knows his stuff so well. Thanks again to everyone here for pointing me to Roger.

 

[Geotrash]

Talked to Roger on the phone today and ordered the parts. He’s generous with his time and generous of spirit. He gave great advice, suggested that shaving the heads down by 25 thousandths would be about perfect, and made a slight adjustment to the pushrod order accordingly. Nothing makes me happier than doing business with competent people I can admire and respect. Thanks for the joy this week, gents!

Dave


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[91RS]

PSI 1511.

 

[Rocket Man]

Thanks for the pics. I like the Whipple

Saw the Yella Terra stuff on his site. Pricey. Now you have me thinking about power adders

The YT’s are pricey but Roger told me they’re good for about 25hp/20tq so in reality at $700 that’s not all that bad. At a certain point hp gets pretty expensive once you’ve done the high hp-to-dollar mods like tune, cam, head work etc.

 

[Dantheman1540]

They don't like to rev as high or as quick, that's why the LSs use the beehives. ALL of my prior GM cars, even ones that rarely saw 5000 rpms had dual valve springs.

Is there measurable data anywhere that suggests they don't rev as fast?

 

[swathdiver]

Is there measurable data anywhere that suggests they don't rev as fast?

Dan, That sounds like a nice way of saying, "prove it"! LOL

https://www.enginelabs.com/engine-t...rings-sound-great-but-will-they-work-for-you/

https://www.hotrod.com/articles/hrdp-1011-what-you-need-to-know-about-valvesprings/

http://www.superchevy.com/how-to/corp-0509-beehive-cylindrical-valvespring-info/

There were also some informative chapters in this book:

 

[Dantheman1540]

Dan, That sounds like a nice way of saying, "prove it"! LOL

https://www.enginelabs.com/engine-t...rings-sound-great-but-will-they-work-for-you/

https://www.hotrod.com/articles/hrdp-1011-what-you-need-to-know-about-valvesprings/

http://www.superchevy.com/how-to/corp-0509-beehive-cylindrical-valvespring-info/

There were also some informative chapters in this book:

Hahaha yes sort of, I know you always have a plethora of sources and typically don't just spout opinion so I figured you could educate me. I actually have that book I will have to go though it again along with those links. Thank you.

 

[Rocket Man]

Dan, That sounds like a nice way of saying, "prove it"! LOL

https://www.enginelabs.com/engine-t...rings-sound-great-but-will-they-work-for-you/

https://www.hotrod.com/articles/hrdp-1011-what-you-need-to-know-about-valvesprings/

http://www.superchevy.com/how-to/corp-0509-beehive-cylindrical-valvespring-info/

There were also some informative chapters in this book:

I thought LS engines didn’t experience much if any difference in top RPM with either a good dual vs beehive but big blocks did see a difference? And although if either breaks you will most likely suffer some damage, although the inner spring on a dual isn’t enough to completely keep the valve up, you’re much less likely to suffer catastrophic damage from it dropping all the way like would happen if a beehive broke. I went with what Roger Vinci spec’d for his cams which were duals. I sent him an email asking for why he recommends duals in my application.
Edit: I think I need to buy me a book! Thanks for that, James.

 

[swathdiver]

I thought LS engines didn’t experience much if any difference in top RPM with either a good dual vs beehive but big blocks did see a difference? And although if either breaks you will most likely suffer some damage, although the inner spring on a dual isn’t enough to completely keep the valve up, you’re much less likely to suffer catastrophic damage from it dropping all the way like would happen if a beehive broke. I went with what Roger Vinci spec’d for his cams which were duals. I sent him an email asking for why he recommends duals in my application.
Edit: I think I need to buy me a book! Thanks for that, James.

Over the years we had some guys break valve springs in their 455 Buicks and in the little 231s and none suffered engine damage because that little inner spring kept the valve from kissing the piston. Come to think of it, my father stuck a valve in my sister's GN and was able to save that head and the piston was not marked either. Don't remember why anymore other than dirty oil, he never changed it, got amnesia about car maintenance around the time I turned 14 or 15.

 

[Rocket Man]

Over the years we had some guys break valve springs in their 455 Buicks and in the little 231s and none suffered engine damage because that little inner spring kept the valve from kissing the piston. Come to think of it, my father stuck a valve in my sister's GN and was able to save that head and the piston was not marked either. Don't remember why anymore other than dirty oil, he never changed it, got amnesia about car maintenance around the time I turned 14 or 15.

I heard if you shut it down fast enough it might be able to stop from hitting the piston but at least it will never fall all the way down like somebody I know of had happen.

 

[Dantheman1540]

Over the years we had some guys break valve springs in their 455 Buicks and in the little 231s and none suffered engine damage because that little inner spring kept the valve from kissing the piston. Come to think of it, my father stuck a valve in my sister's GN and was able to save that head and the piston was not marked either. Don't remember why anymore other than dirty oil, he never changed it, got amnesia about car maintenance around the time I turned 14 or 15.

I did my homework and I as you said the Beehives can rev a little faster while staying stable but at the cost of possibly one breaking and messing stuff up. So IMHO for these trucks which only a maniac would push passed 7k duals are the way to go.

This book really is a must have for anyone with an LS engine, The torque specs in the back make it worth its weight in gold. Nothing is worse than googling a torque spec with greasy hands.

 

[Rocket Man]

I did my homework and I as you said the Beehives can rev a little faster while staying stable but at the cost of possibly one breaking and messing stuff up. So IMHO for these trucks which only a maniac would push passed 7k duals are the way to go.

This book really is a must have for anyone with an LS engine, The torque specs in the back make it worth its weight in gold. Nothing is worse than googling a torque spec with greasy hands.
View attachment 259278 View attachment 259279

I ordered that book. I will someday build an LS from the ground up.

 

[Geotrash]

I did my homework and I as you said the Beehives can rev a little faster while staying stable but at the cost of possibly one breaking and messing stuff up. So IMHO for these trucks which only a maniac would push passed 7k duals are the way to go.

This book really is a must have for anyone with an LS engine, The torque specs in the back make it worth its weight in gold. Nothing is worse than googling a torque spec with greasy hands.

If that’s the same book that swathdiver referenced, I ordered a copy of it this morning. Glad to also have some validation that the dual springs are the way to go for this engine. Fascinating stuff to learn - all of it. Thanks for sharing your ‘homework’.