Mild 6.0L Build Suggestions?

[Matthew Jeschke]

Thanks @fasteddy so far so good pretty easy to tune. The goat rope garage tutorials have been really helpful.

Good to know about temp. I may swap for a 160f thermostat. Curious I have a belt driven fan. Do I need a different temp clutch? I think clutch is temperature driven.

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[fasteddy]

The temp thing is just me and the way I've had my head shaped over the years.
Lower temps in oil, coolant, air, trans, diff all lead to more power which leads to lower laptimes, traptimes, and higher topspeed.

Your temp is fine for now and shouldn't stop you from finishing your tune.

Temp clutch? I don't know about that......it looks mechanical to me. Its fine too. That fan sucks alot of air....like 4500cfm?
As a matter of reference the latest duramax, the L5P still has a mechanical fan. Yes, it also pushes 900lbs of TQ, so the fan robbing power has less impact than on an LQ9.



Where you want to get to with your tune/test/revise process is numerous WOT pulls in 3rd gear from 30mph to your rev limit of ? 6000? 8000? whatever it is.
The purpose is to see continuous and hopefully smooth data, so you can adjust the calibrations.
So you need to find a fairly straight, level to slightly uphill road (load is good) where you can make that pull......3 to 4 times then review the logs for changes.
This process emulates a dyno pull and will yield a good result.

Be safe, choose your road (test track) wisely, and be aware of police.
Do some morning and night (cool air) pulls and afternoon (hot air) pulls so you can see the impact of IAT on your results.

 

[Matthew Jeschke]

Gr8 advice. I like mechanical fans better than the electric ones. Have had electrical ones go out before.

I think I am going to copy LQ9 spark tables into my tune... it seems to be knocking a bit / pulling timing.

They are helping me on HpTuners forum... However bit stumped with spark / octane tables as they are in cylinder airmass and vcm scanner is in absolute manifold pressure. There is no parameter to change the axis, or predefined math for cylinder airmass.

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[Dantheman1540]

Instead of shotgunning the spark table by swapping to one from an LQ9, I would just run a histogram for spark and pull where it is showing knock then smooth out around it. That's been my technique at least and I have no knock.

 

[fasteddy]

Instead of shotgunning the spark table by swapping to one from an LQ9, I would just run a histogram for spark and pull where it is showing knock then smooth out around it. That's been my technique at least and I have no knock.

Thanks Dan!
And I forgot to tell you, Dan is an experienced tuner extraordinaire!

 

[Dantheman1540]

Thanks Dan!
And I forgot to tell you, Dan is an experienced tuner extraordinaire!

Dont put that voodoo on me! I still have a very odd start up condition I can't seem to figure out. Plus idk how to do anything with automagical trans tuning.

 

[Matthew Jeschke]

Instead of shotgunning the spark table by swapping to one from an LQ9, I would just run a histogram for spark and pull where it is showing knock then smooth out around it. That's been my technique at least and I have no knock.

Yeah that makes good sense. My biggest trouble though is, VCM scanner has vertical axis as manifold absolute pressure. The BIN has it as cylinder airmass. I'm not sure how to convert one to the other. Trying to figure it out. I have a thread on HP Tuners forum but nobody's explained it there yet.

 

[fasteddy]

Dont put that voodoo on me! I still have a very odd start up condition I can't seem to figure out. Plus idk how to do anything with automagical trans tuning.

That's funny.
I always thought trans tuning was way easier than engine tuning.
And you have a manual.....there is no trans tuning.

 

[Dantheman1540]

Yeah that makes good sense. My biggest trouble though is, VCM scanner has vertical axis as manifold absolute pressure. The BIN has it as cylinder airmass. I'm not sure how to convert one to the other. Trying to figure it out. I have a thread on HP Tuners forum but nobody's explained it there yet.

So heres a pic of my spark tables in the scanner. I have cyl air mass as a vehicle axis, your saying you dont have that option anywhere?

 

[Dantheman1540]

That's funny.
I always thought trans tuning was way easier than engine tuning.
And you have a manual.....there is no trans tuning.

I just have very little knowledge of them in general. Only owned a few vehicles with autos and usually they were for flips or money saver daily drivers. I did own a CVT trans in a Mazda CX5, hated it!

 

[Matthew Jeschke]

Finally got the histograms figured out. Had to re-watch spark tuning tutorials. I luckily had collected the data for those histograms in my prior runs and am playing with it now. I found the cylinder airmass in the list of parametets.

Those dips and transitions seem really extreme. Also 7, almost 8 degrees of retard is a bit spooky, makes me nervous to go out and log more data before I get this figured out.

Can I adjust that much in the table without causing issues?

 

[Dantheman1540]

Finally got the histograms figured out. Had to re-watch spark tuning tutorials. I luckily had collected the data for those histograms in my prior runs and am playing with it now. I think there's some really odd stuff going on. When I adjust the spark tables it doesn't make since.

Those dips and transitions seem really extreme. Also 7, almost 8 degrees of retard is a bit spooky, makes me nervous to go out and log more data before I get this figured out.

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Whoa that does seem like an excessive amount of retard at such low cly air mass with hardly any advance commanded. Just to be sure tho I would pull exactly that amount out and go try again. If it again says you have a crazy amount of knock you need to either look for mechanical interference, such as headers hitting the frame. Or possible lower the knock sensor sensitivity. It could also be flare knock due to over tightened sensors, bad sensors, or bad harness. My buddies 408 did that and it was 2 bad sensors.

 

[Matthew Jeschke]

I was curious about same thing. Something on exterior of engine hitting. Hopefully isnt knock sensors. PITA to change them haha both are brand new, along with harness, seals, and tightened to 18ftlbs. Threads cleaned on block before etc.

Guy on HP Tuners forum said to command PE at 65% throttle. He looked at my scan file and thought was due to not getting enough fuel quickly enough once I get close to WOT

I went back and am going through the scan file again. My knock correlates with sharp increases in throttle position. I'm going to test this out. I think he maybe right, hopefully.

On another note: Do you know how I tell if my injectors are close to maxed out?

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[Dantheman1540]

I was curious about same thing. Something on exterior of engine hitting. Hopefully isnt knock sensors. PITA to change them haha both are brand new, along with harness, seals, and tightened to 18ftlbs. Threads cleaned on block before etc.

Guy on HP Tuners forum said to command PE at 65% throttle. He looked at my scan file and thought was due to not getting enough fuel quickly enough once I get close to WOT

I went back and am going through the scan file again. My knock correlates with sharp increases in throttle position. I'm going to test this out. I think he maybe right, hopefully.

On another note: Do you know how I tell if my injectors are close to maxed out?

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Injector duty cycle should be at or below 90% or you are kinda pushing it. Although with a mostly stock engine seeing right up to 98-99% may be okay.

Adjust PE to come on sooner is a good idea.

I haven't personally seen a something touching or vibrating causing the issue and both my trucks the headers touch the frame lol. But I wouldnt rule it would and it's fairly easy to check for. You could also dull the sensors sensitivity a bunch and see if it still happens. That would point towards faulty sensors or harness.

Sorry for the crap pictures I'm trying to cook right now lol.

 

[Matthew Jeschke]

No worries about screen captures I do that all the time haha. Dang I'm a dufass injector duty cycle was right under my nose haha Going to load the 65% PE right now and test it out.

Quick notes: I got the tune where I experienced knock driving in 3rd gear on highway, modulating the throttle from nearly 0% to close to 100% (or as close as law would allow this thing gets going pretty quick).

I then pulled off interstate and shut down that log. For peace of mind I logged my city driving back to my house not modulating throttle just driving normally. I got no knock and my MAF error

I logged normal driving at speeds around town driving back to my house to see how they look. Got no knock, and my peak MAF error was 1.92%. So feel pretty good about that. Just need to watch this knock so I don't break anything. Not sure how much know breaks stuff but don't want to find out either haha

 

[Dantheman1540]

No worries about screen captures I do that all the time haha. Dang I'm a dufass injector duty cycle was right under my nose haha Going to load the 65% PE right now and test it out.

Quick notes: I got the tune where I experienced knock driving in 3rd gear on highway, modulating the throttle from nearly 0% to close to 100% (or as close as law would allow this thing gets going pretty quick).

I then pulled off interstate and shut down that log. For peace of mind I logged my city driving back to my house not modulating throttle just driving normally. I got no knock and my MAF error

I logged normal driving at speeds around town driving back to my house to see how they look. Got no knock, and my peak MAF error was 1.92%. So feel pretty good about that. Just need to watch this knock so I don't break anything. Not sure how much know breaks stuff but don't want to find out either haha

No idea how much knock means imminent doom but I know sustained it continuous knock can kill rod bearings. Or at least that's what the pros tell me lol.

1.92% is good, when you reactivate the O2s it should clean that last bit up.

I'll keep my fingers crossed that you have enough injector left

 

[Matthew Jeschke]

Did a bunch of runs. Logged data on each run for the MAF calibration and the Spark. The spark seems to be diminishing. I'm only editing the low octane table though. I wonder if the same changes need made to the high octane table?

My MAF curve is getting close Goat Rope Garage tutorials said to get within +/- 1% Not sure if that's practical with all my other adjustments I need to work. I'm nearly within +/- 2% I also notice isn't a perfectly smooth curve.

I try to get the truck to go through 1st and 2nd gear as quickly as possible. But are those little irregularities due to pressure decreasing in the cylinders as the transmission shifts? Then the effects cascading back to the MAF sensor?

Never took Thermodynamics or internal combustion engines class in college but wanted too haha

 

[Matthew Jeschke]

I compared an LQ9 BIN with my new BIN and all the knock pulled out. It's actually trending in the same direction as the LQ9 BIN.

I almost wonder if I shouldn't have copied those tables over from the LQ9 tune. They are considerably different from the 5.3L.

 

[Dantheman1540]

I compared an LQ9 BIN with my new BIN and all the knock pulled out. It's actually trending in the same direction as the LQ9 BIN.

I almost wonder if I shouldn't have copied those tables over from the LQ9 tune. They are considerably different from the 5.3L.

I'd say the MAF curve shouldn't be perfectly smooth as there will be variations and restrictions in your intake tract. I know when I was tuning MAF mine wasn't ever perfectly smooth and it did annoy me, same with the MAP graph.

I would recommend for the tuning process to copy both spark tables and when you make changes do it to both. Otherwise, you won't know if it's commanding out of the high or low table. Once you get it dialed you can take the low table and pul 2-5* out of the entire table to make it safe if you get bad gas or hit the wrong button one fillup.

Also, I know it's kinda difficult sometimes but I've always thought it was better to tune in 2nd or 3rd gear and get on and off the throttle slowly not crazy fast pedal mashing or letting off because it can skew data. 1st gear is usually gone pretty quick and might not be the best data to gather from. I like to start from a stop in 3rd and bog it all the way up to 80ish MPH where I hit my limiter then gently shift to 4th and if road permits then maybe carry 4th a little further. That's with my manual trans which has weird gearing. For your 4l60 I'd manually put it in second or command 2nd from HPT and run it up to redline then let it shift and get back in it to run up 3rd as much as possible.

 

[Matthew Jeschke]

Awesome helpful! I will make both graphs match for the spark advance (low/high octane).

I'll have to research a way to force truck to skip 1st gear all together in the transmission. That would be INCREADIBLY helpful. I can do a 2nd gear pull up to pretty high speed. I think even 75 / 80 mph. Just a little concerned about reving too much with the new motor build? Not sure if I need to finish breaking it in yet, wait till I have around 1000 miles on it?

Kind of wondering about stopping with my MAF curve tuning and switching to speed density.

Another guy on HP Tuners forum claims I have my short term fuel trims on, but says "closed loop" off in the VCM scanner parameters list. I think he's just picking on me / wants to complain about my novice but I cannot tell. I'm not sure how to share the files here but followed goat rope garage tutorials to the T. It shows short term trims in my log file but I believe it's not using them in the fuel adjustment, otherwise I'd think my MAF error (AFR error) wouldn't be getting closer, I'd just be fighting it the whole time in the tune.