Feds to roll back Start/Stop Technology

[DuraYuk]

What did they call the last gimmick science that was supposed to be uber-cool gas save tech? Active fuel management...that went well! Right guys?

Does anyone driving a truck actually care if their mileage goes up by 0.37561 miles per gallon?
No, because if they did, they would drive like it. Maybe the five-under guy in the 98 Camry cares?

You can't force-engineer GREEN into products that inherently aren't. Just like you can't make low fat "Ice Cream" that actually tastes like ice cream does.

All you can do is optimize, and we have essentially optimized the ICE (Internal Combustion Engine, not ice cream). When that's not good enough, come up with a scheme to appease the green cult and get the Science People™ all revved up (pun intended). But all you're doing is putting off the inevitable.

Which is electrification.

P.S. You can trust me, because I actually do have an Environmental Science Bachelor's from a real university On second thought, that's not a reason to trust me at all...

The green cult? Holy smokes.

He said trust me bro. Hahaha love it.

Now saving gas is a scheme? Man oh man. Bring the facts back! Wow.

 

[BacDoc]

Blue hair huh ? There it is folks.

I love how all this is based on what you feel and not what you know.

Here in Florida we have a lot of “blue hairs” a term used to describe elderly grandma types. The grandma on fixed income driving a Prius is usually slower than speed limit and does not stomp on the pedal - my analogy for a very slow cautious driver concerned more about mpg than anything else!

 

[DuraYuk]

Here in Florida we have a lot of “blue hairs” a term used to describe elderly grandma types. The grandma on fixed income driving a Prius is usually slower than speed limit and does not stomp on the pedal - my analogy for a very slow cautious driver concerned more about mpg than anything else!

I'll be honest Im here to be objective but I can see this thread is getting derailed with name calling etc so I'm gonna go ahead and disengage before you guys show us who you really are.

I said what I needed to on the subject.

Good luck.

 

[OBSandaNNBS]

Blue hair huh ? There it is folks.

I love how all this is based on what you feel and not what you know.

Yeah blue hair was a good one

Love your post from earlier.
Follows the same old cookie cutter pattern...
1. Accuse opponent of denying/fighting Ze Science®
2. Suggest normal people with functioning brains can't think for themselves on issue that affects them.
3. Supply "facts" from "authority"
4. Lob insults directly at opponent when they disagree.

Think we are at about 3.5...

Oh shoot I forgot,
Step 0. Misunderstand opponent's argument

No one is contending that Start/stop and AFM do not save gas. It does. A little.

We ARE saying that the cost-benefit just isn't there for use on large SUVs.

IMO just electrify or deal with 20 mpg max in practice.

I know I'd look good in a Cyber truck. You would too I'm sure.

 

[OBSandaNNBS]

The green cult? Holy smokes.

He said trust me bro. Hahaha love it.

Now saving gas is a scheme? Man oh man. Bring the facts back! Wow.

Trust me was a joke. Read the next sentence...wish I could trade the degree for a mechanic school diploma and be useful to the world.

 

[OBSandaNNBS]

Best part of AFM is that is shares something critical with Auto stop/start :: it can be disabled and/or deleted

Good thing PPV’s have it deleted from factory

Wonder why

What other proof do you need?

Rules for the serfs but not for the lords...

 

[BacDoc]

I see. This isn't about how things work. But 'oversight'. Nice word choice guys. Let's keep fighting science.

The systems are designed for it. Its not grandpas car with no other improvements running it. Oil pressure ? Doesn't drop to zero when it was just on then off. It has to bleed off. It doesnt. The electrical system is designed to sustain it and maintain charge. There's algorithms it doesn't always auto stop unless all parameters are met.

I get that you dont like it. Thats all you gotta say but dont make up bullet points that are easily disproven.


Thankfully we all have a choice.

Does the Start/Stop Function Really Improve Your Car’s Fuel Economy? - Consumer Reports

The automatic start/stop function shuts off the engine when your car is idling. But just how much does this technology really save you on gas?

www.consumerreports.org

Do Stop-Start Systems Really Save Fuel? | Edmunds

An increasing number of new cars are being equipped with stop-start systems that are designed to save fuel by shutting off the engine at stoplights. But do they work?

www.edmunds.com

From the first link - the fuel savings is going to be much lower? Think about that statement! If the engine is running at highway speed there’s absolutely zero fuel savings!

Also in the second link the conclusion for city driving is a savings of 10% - with air conditioning off. A 6.2l with ac off in city driving probably gets around 14/15mpg, so with auto stop and ac off we get improved 1.5 mpg ? Does anyone on this forum think that this is any advantage? Drivers who are concerned about fuel economy go for the Diesel!

 

[DuraYuk]

From the first link - the fuel savings is going to be much lower? Think about that statement! If the engine is running at highway speed there’s absolutely zero fuel savings!

Also in the second link the conclusion for city driving is a savings of 10% - with air conditioning off. A 6.2l with ac off in city driving probably gets around 14/15mpg, so with auto stop and ac off we get improved 1.5 mpg ? Does anyone on this forum think that this is any advantage? Drivers who are concerned about fuel economy go for the Diesel!
View attachment 457446

On the hwy a car isn't auto stopping.

Cars literally have tons of little things incorporated to increase efficiency. Every little bit counts. Tires, grill shutters, temp control, goes on and on. The diesel has auto start stop and the engines are just fine.

 

[DuraYuk]

Yeah blue hair was a good one

Love your post from earlier.
Follows the same old cookie cutter pattern...
1. Accuse opponent of denying/fighting Ze Science®
2. Suggest normal people with functioning brains can't think for themselves on issue that affects them.
3. Supply "facts" from "authority"
4. Lob insults directly at opponent when they disagree.

Think we are at about 3.5...

Oh shoot I forgot,
Step 0. Misunderstand opponent's argument

No one is contending that Start/stop and AFM do not save gas. It does. A little.

We ARE saying that the cost-benefit just isn't there for use on large SUVs.

IMO just electrify or deal with 20 mpg max in practice.

I know I'd look good in a Cyber truck. You would too I'm sure.

Your not making good faith arguments when people start name calling.

I get it tho. I really do. I can read between the lines lol believe me.

I showed you how it is beneficial and now we are throwing stones. So I'm
gonna refrain. I wont change your mind. And I dont intend on doing it. I thought the post was for discussion not to hold our belts and say whatever.

Just sucks that this divide is just everywhere these days cant escape it. Picked a terrible timeline to be objective/fact orientated.

Respectfully I hope everyone makes the choice that's right for them.

 

[OBSandaNNBS]

Your not making good faith arguments when people start name calling.

I get it tho. I really do. I can read between the lines lol believe me.

I showed you how it is beneficial and now we are throwing stones. So I'm
gonna refrain. I wont change your mind. And I dont intend on doing it. I thought the post was for discussion not to hold our belts and say whatever.

Just sucks that this divide is just everywhere these days cant escape it. Picked a terrible timeline to be objective/fact orientated.

Respectfully I hope everyone makes the choice that's right for them.

I don't think you are understanding my argument. It's about cost-benefit to the consumer.

No one is calling you a name. At least I didn't think so.
Hard to have a discussion when you have the attitude of I'm right, you all are clearly wrong.

All most of us want is a durable product that will last a good long time. And AFM and ASS don't seem compatible with that. AFM, especially early AFM, has definitely proved that out.

If you can demonstrate, long term, that the cost-benefit ratio is there, I'm all ears. Don't forget R&D and engineering costs, usually passed onto consumer in initial cost. I think my OBS MSRP was like $28K. What's a Suburban cost today? Inflation alone can't explain it. No doubt it's a better vehicle overall, but is it the most durable it could be?

IMPORTANT PART:
Other efficiencies like reducing drag coefficient, EGR/Evap, etc, have a great ratio. So does fuel injection. You can only make an ICE so good without negative compromises. There IS a ceiling. If you are worried about efficiency, the solution isn't screwing with the engine to get small gains...it's switching to electric motors. (Long term cost-benefit still in question)

 

[DuraYuk]

I don't think you are understanding my argument. It's about cost-benefit to the consumer.

No one is calling you a name. At least I didn't think so.
Hard to have a discussion when you have the attitude of I'm right, you all are clearly wrong.

All most of us want is a durable product that will last a good long time. And AFM and ASS don't seem compatible with that. AFM, especially early AFM, has definitely proved that out.

If you can demonstrate, long term, that the cost-benefit ratio is there, I'm all ears. Don't forget R&D and engineering costs, usually passed onto consumer in initial cost. I think my OBS MSRP was like $28K. What's a Suburban cost today? Inflation alone can't explain it. No doubt it's a better vehicle overall, but is it the most durable it could be?

IMPORTANT PART:
Other efficiencies like reducing drag coefficient, EGR/Evap, etc, have a great ratio. So does fuel injection. You can only make an ICE so good without negative compromises. There IS a ceiling. If you are worried about efficiency, the solution isn't screwing with the engine to get small gains...it's switching to electric motors. (Long term cost-benefit still in question)

Read the links I sent. Its 10% fuel saved on average up to 26%.

Do you need cost analysis on grill shutters? Low rolling resistance tires? Multiple speed transmissions? Gear ratios? Dynamic fuel management? Cam profiles? Stochionetric efficiencies? Air fuel ratio sensors ?

Or just this?

 

[BacDoc]

Read the links I sent. Its 10% fuel saved on average up to 26%.

Do you need cost analysis on grill shutters? Low rolling resistance tires? Multiple speed transmissions? Gear ratios? Dynamic fuel management? Cam profiles? Stochionetric efficiencies? Air fuel ratio sensors ?

Or just this?

The second link you posted came up with 10% between the 3 vehicles tested and none were as big or heavy as our trucks, with the air conditioning off. The Jaguar with V8 is not even close if you are talking apples to apples.

10% either way is not a deal breaker for the person who is buying a 6.2l. The way you drive these trucks can vary 30% between slow and spirited or in my case towing 7000lbs.

As I said before, those looking for fuel economy in these large SUV’s are looking at the diesel which will get way more than 25% even with air conditioning on!

PS calling older retired people in Florida “blue hairs” or “raisins” has been in the vernacular for decades and is more endearing/humerous than derogatory. Younger local people often complain about the seasonal traffic in Florida by saying the roads are packed with blue hairs and raisins.
Growing up in New Jersey I heard my dad say his dream was to retire and become an old raisin in Florida! LOL!

Chill out bro - nobody is calling you names.

 

[OBSandaNNBS]

Read the links I sent. Its 10% fuel saved on average up to 26%.

Do you need cost analysis on grill shutters? Low rolling resistance tires? Multiple speed transmissions? Gear ratios? Dynamic fuel management? Cam profiles? Stochionetric efficiencies? Air fuel ratio sensors ?

Or just this?

I think this is the third time...yes it is a fuel savings. NOT arguing it isn't. Perhaps my posts were too long. I'll try to be brief.

ASS and even AFM save fuel. Fuel savings is good, but it*IS NOT* the whole picture.
You can only make an ICE so efficient before comprising something else, ie longevity.
Not all of us want to make that trade, but get stuck footing the engineering cost anyway if we buy a new vehicle. As well as unintended negative consequences of said engineering.

I think going all electric/hybrid OR keeping a solid V8 are both preferable to trying to eek every last mpg from a vehicle class not intended for efficiency, at the cost of something else.

Please tell me you understand the point I am making, even if you don't agree.

 

[DuraYuk]

I think this is the third time...yes it is a fuel savings. NOT arguing it isn't. Perhaps my posts were too long. I'll try to be brief.

ASS and even AFM save fuel. Fuel savings is good, but it*IS NOT* the whole picture.
You can only make an ICE so efficient before comprising something else, ie longevity.
Not all of us want to make that trade, but get stuck footing the engineering cost anyway if we buy a new vehicle. As well as unintended negative consequences of said engineering.

I think going all electric/hybrid OR keeping a solid V8 are both preferable to trying to eek every last mpg from a vehicle class not intended for efficiency, at the cost of something else.

Please tell me you understand the point I am making, even if you don't agree.

All vehicle classes need efficiency.

 

[DuraYuk]

The second link you posted came up with 10% between the 3 vehicles tested and none were as big or heavy as our trucks, with the air conditioning off. The Jaguar with V8 is not even close if you are talking apples to apples.

10% either way is not a deal breaker for the person who is buying a 6.2l. The way you drive these trucks can vary 30% between slow and spirited or in my case towing 7000lbs.

As I said before, those looking for fuel economy in these large SUV’s are looking at the diesel which will get way more than 25% even with air conditioning on!

PS calling older retired people in Florida “blue hairs” or “raisins” has been in the vernacular for decades and is more endearing/humerous than derogatory. Younger local people often complain about the seasonal traffic in Florida by saying the roads are packed with blue hairs and raisins.
Growing up in New Jersey I heard my dad say his dream was to retire and become an old raisin in Florida! LOL!

Chill out bro - nobody is calling you names.

10% is significant. Yeah idk. I dont call people things so I wouldn't know what's cute and what's not pardon me if I dont understand your terms of endearment.

Like I said the tech works. And if it doesnt there's a switch. Taking choice away isn't exactly a upgrade anyway you slice it. Right now you have choice.

 

[OBSandaNNBS]

All vehicle classes need efficiency.

Yes...When you think about it, modern vehicles are historically efficient using the fuel source. Half my point is there is a physical maximum we have basically arrived there for ICE. If it's not good enough, the next logical step is electric.

I think we can crack fusion in the next 30 years. Until then, electric will have big hurdles.

 

[OBSandaNNBS]

10% is significant. Yeah idk. I dont call people things so I wouldn't know what's cute and what's not pardon me if I dont understand your terms of endearment.

Like I said the tech works. And if it doesnt there's a switch. Taking choice away isn't exactly a upgrade anyway you slice it. Right now you have choice.

They actually don't give us a complete choice. If you can turn it off, like most, not all vehicles, can, that mitigates the unintended consequences.

But do they take out the engineering cost from the MSRP if you option out of ASS? Or is it still $80K or whatever?

I wonder how many people would option out if they let you to recoup the engineering cost.

 

[DuraYuk]

They actually don't give us a complete choice. If you can turn it off, like most, not all vehicles, can, that mitigates the unintended consequences.

But do they take out the engineering cost from the MSRP if you option out of ASS? Or is it still $80K or whatever?

I wonder how many people would option out if they let you to recoup the engineering cost.

Im not aware of any vehicle you cant turn it off on.

 

[OBSandaNNBS]

Im not aware of any vehicle you cant turn it off on.

I do. 2019 Equinox. How does the owner I know deal with it in hot days? He lets his foot off the brake to restart the engine...GM fixed it in subsequent years.

Any thoughts the other points I mentioned?

See, this can be a reasonable discussion

 

[jerry455]

I wouldn't bother arguing about the newer tech. It seems on this forum, people who don't even have one of this generation truck will comment about them. If you don't like the technology on our newer trucks fine, some of us have no problem with it. Start Stop has been around quite a while. It saves fuel and less pollution. I barely notice it on my 2021 Suburban.