Oil analysis 0-20 Wolf after 10,000 km or 6,250 miles

[Vladimir2306]

Not questioning your situation or perspective, your truths belong to you, totally respect them. People generally make decisions that make them feel more confident and or comfortable. I have put 0W-40 in both my 2023/2024 L87 since the first oil change (@ around 900 miles), and as of last summer, I've cut every oil filter open to inspect for metal... this gives me confidence and comfort. There are many published opinions on whether 0W-20 is good enough and they go both ways with a lean towards 0W-40 being better. I made the decision that makes me feel a bit more confident and comfortable. I hope you can respect that, because your evidence is not indisputable.

Your position has the right to exist, but what about the guarantee?

 

[mkcotton]

Your position has the right to exist, but what about the guarantee?

There are no guarantees in life, but I have a 10y/100k warranty and after this probably 150k mile...

 

[Scarey]

Vladimir, I’m not sure why you’re so concerned about the guarantee/warranty. I don’t believe you have a warranty in Russia. You present yourself as a rebel, why would you care? I’m curious why you’re even buying the American crappy cars. You continue to rant about the poor quality, poor craftsmanship, poor parts, surely you have better quality to buy in Russia.

 

[jfoj]

Oh yeah, the oil analysis is deceiving me, and the know-it-all on the forum, who has no confirmation of his words, is telling the pure truth well, stop talking nonsense already.
GM hasn't admitted anything, it made statements that something was apologised for from 01.07.2024, in fact, nothing has changed. All these jokes with Pico tests, and replacement with 0-40 oil are just agony, just an image of activity, so that people don't give in to hysteria, like GM has everything under control. But in fact, I will say what will happen, the engines will simply continue to fail, and that's it, GM will quietly change them. If they admitted that the oil was to blame, then after replacing the engine or repairing it, they would pour 0-40. But no....they just stuck a band-aid on the owners in the form of 0-40 oil, so that they calmed down....

"The know it all on the forum", Vladimir you need to look in the mirror. The guy that gives tons of advice that has probably never even turned a wrench on an engine.

You FAIL to understand a lot of basics. 0W20 may have worked for the prior generation 6.2l BUT these were typically running 8 speed transmissions and the engines were not dealing with 3 Overdrive gears.

The oil film calculations indicate that 0W20 is really not adequate for the 6.2l and its loading behind the 10 speed. Crankshaft surface finish problems probably contributed to early failures, but you do not seem to understand how different the crankshaft surface finish needs to be to operate properly with 0W20 or lower viscosity oils. Additionally you cannot just wholesale run super low viscosity oils under all torque and load conditions. You really need to understand what is the best oil chemistry for the job.

As I mentioned the majority of these engine failures have occurred during longer high speed highway runs, few if any engines seemed to have any noticeable knock or wear problems before the failed. Additionally the problems were, are and will not be picked up with an oil analysis because of the works fine for weeks/months after the oil has been changed until someone decides to take a 2-6 hour trip on the highway, then BOOM, you are done, oil film not durable enough to keep boundary lubrication or metal on metal from occurring, then starts the heat and then the bearing fails. If you even check the oil before every long trip, I have yet for someone to say they detected metal in towel used to wipe the dipstick.

I agree with some of the other posters, you are so worried about the Warranty. Well look at it this way, I would rather my engine last and not fail than to have it fail and require a replacement.

Interesting how GM is putting 0W40 in all the Recalled engines that "Pass" the Pico test. This is because GM understand that the crankshaft surface finish is questionable and the higher viscosity oil gives far more safety margin under all conditions.

I will say is again, there are MANY LEGAL reasons why GM WILL NOT back off 0W20 on non recalled engines that "Pass" the Pico test. You really thing they are going to say we screwed up and pushed the envelope to far?? They would probably suffer fines from the Government and Lawsuits until the end of time if they did this.

Not sure if things get lost in translations, but 0W20 is not for long term reliability. It was picked because the full size truck and SUV market is huge and GM needed the best fuel economy possible from these vehicles to even have a chance of meeting federal government requirements.

I do not care what oil you or anyone else runs in their vehicle, I am suggesting for people to pull their head out of the sand and look at the big picture and understand what limitations 0W20 have for these High Torque, Low RPM 6000+ lb vehicles. The long term outlook is not good for anyone that is convinced 0W20 is their friend.

If my engine fails, it WILL NOT fail because of using 0W40 oil. Using 0W40 oil probably made the engine last far longer than it would have with 0W20 oil.

 

[Vladimir2306]

There are no guarantees in life, but I have a 10y/100k warranty and after this probably 150k mile...

Are you saying that your dealer won't cancel your warranty because you used 0-40 oil when the manual says 0-20?

 

[Vladimir2306]

Vladimir, I’m not sure why you’re so concerned about the guarantee/warranty. I don’t believe you have a warranty in Russia. You present yourself as a rebel, why would you care? I’m curious why you’re even buying the American crappy cars. You continue to rant about the poor quality, poor craftsmanship, poor parts, surely you have better quality to buy in Russia.

We are communicating on the US website. I mean the warranty on cars in the US. In Russia we do not have a warranty on these cars. Nevertheless, most owners, and even heads of GM services drive on the recommended oil 0-20. And they have opened these engines more than one hundred times already)
I never said that American cars are bad, I only say that the L87 engine is assembled poorly, with violation of its own technical parameters. As for the options for buying cars, I can buy any car, from any country in the world, but for my operating conditions there are no other cars except fullsize.
Neither in China, nor in Europe, nor in Japan, there are no cars that fit the parameters of the long GM base. And this means that my choice comes down to a few cars... This is GM Suburban, Yukon XL, Escalade ESV, or this Grand Wagoneer L, or Lincoln Navigator L. So the choice is essentially like the fingers on one hand) not many. At the same time, I have been reading forums on Lincoln and Jeep for six months. And there are also a lot of problems there.
So for now, I'm still considering a GM as my next car, but with a diesel engine. I was really hoping for changes in 2025 with the L87, but no, the miracle didn't happen.

 

[Vladimir2306]

"The know it all on the forum", Vladimir you need to look in the mirror. The guy that gives tons of advice that has probably never even turned a wrench on an engine.

You FAIL to understand a lot of basics. 0W20 may have worked for the prior generation 6.2l BUT these were typically running 8 speed transmissions and the engines were not dealing with 3 Overdrive gears.

The oil film calculations indicate that 0W20 is really not adequate for the 6.2l and its loading behind the 10 speed. Crankshaft surface finish problems probably contributed to early failures, but you do not seem to understand how different the crankshaft surface finish needs to be to operate properly with 0W20 or lower viscosity oils. Additionally you cannot just wholesale run super low viscosity oils under all torque and load conditions. You really need to understand what is the best oil chemistry for the job.

As I mentioned the majority of these engine failures have occurred during longer high speed highway runs, few if any engines seemed to have any noticeable knock or wear problems before the failed. Additionally the problems were, are and will not be picked up with an oil analysis because of the works fine for weeks/months after the oil has been changed until someone decides to take a 2-6 hour trip on the highway, then BOOM, you are done, oil film not durable enough to keep boundary lubrication or metal on metal from occurring, then starts the heat and then the bearing fails. If you even check the oil before every long trip, I have yet for someone to say they detected metal in towel used to wipe the dipstick.

I agree with some of the other posters, you are so worried about the Warranty. Well look at it this way, I would rather my engine last and not fail than to have it fail and require a replacement.

Interesting how GM is putting 0W40 in all the Recalled engines that "Pass" the Pico test. This is because GM understand that the crankshaft surface finish is questionable and the higher viscosity oil gives far more safety margin under all conditions.

I will say is again, there are MANY LEGAL reasons why GM WILL NOT back off 0W20 on non recalled engines that "Pass" the Pico test. You really thing they are going to say we screwed up and pushed the envelope to far?? They would probably suffer fines from the Government and Lawsuits until the end of time if they did this.

Not sure if things get lost in translations, but 0W20 is not for long term reliability. It was picked because the full size truck and SUV market is huge and GM needed the best fuel economy possible from these vehicles to even have a chance of meeting federal government requirements.

I do not care what oil you or anyone else runs in their vehicle, I am suggesting for people to pull their head out of the sand and look at the big picture and understand what limitations 0W20 have for these High Torque, Low RPM 6000+ lb vehicles. The long term outlook is not good for anyone that is convinced 0W20 is their friend.

If my engine fails, it WILL NOT fail because of using 0W40 oil. Using 0W40 oil probably made the engine last far longer than it would have with 0W20 oil.

Man, I wonder, have you ever seen a disassembled L87?) or only in pictures? Oh, what do I hear, you now have a new culprit for engine breakdowns? You change your mind so quickly, I don't have time to write it down)
Now you also blame the 10-speed automatic transmission? But let's open their characteristics?
Automatic transmission 6L80 has gear ratios (IV) - 1.15, (V) - 0.85, (VI) - 0.67.
10L90 automatic transmission has gear ratios (VII)-1.00, (VIII)- 0.85, (IX)-0.69, (X)- 0.65
don't you notice anything? 6th gear 6L80 is approximately in the same range as 9th and 10th gear on 10L90, which means that 4 additional steps in the automatic transmission were conditionally attached not on top of the range, but inside the range, simply making the engine work more evenly during acceleration. On the highway, the engine of both the 4th and 5th generations drives at approximately the same load, and with approximately the same speed.
Moreover, I will tell you, if you had the same experience of driving on the highway as I do, I would have noticed that the 10L90 most often drove in 9th gear, 10th gear is engaged at speeds of about 50-60 miles per hour, then with an increase in speed, the automatic transmission constantly drives in 9th gear, engaging 10th only on downhill roads. And then with an increase in speed to about 90 miles per hour the automatic transmission already drives at maximum 8th gear, and upon reaching 105-110 mph, the automatic transmission engages direct 7th gear and drives only on it.
Incidentally, this is precisely why fuel consumption on the highway on the 5th generation at a speed of over 80 mph is higher than on the 4th generation with a 6.2 engine and 6L80 automatic transmission, because the 6L80 held the highest gear at high speed, and the 10L90 does not hold the highest gear.
so about the automatic transmission, this is an addition to the piggy bank of nonsense that you write here)

 

[fondupot]

 

[blanchard7684]

Man, I wonder, have you ever seen a disassembled L87?) or only in pictures? Oh, what do I hear, you now have a new culprit for engine breakdowns? You change your mind so quickly, I don't have time to write it down)
Now you also blame the 10-speed automatic transmission? But let's open their characteristics?
Automatic transmission 6L80 has gear ratios (IV) - 1.15, (V) - 0.85, (VI) - 0.67.
10L90 automatic transmission has gear ratios (VII)-1.00, (VIII)- 0.85, (IX)-0.69, (X)- 0.65
don't you notice anything?

Looks to me like the 10 spd keeps the engine loaded to a greater extent.

What is missing also is the context of the programmed downshifting points. The current configuration with the 10 spd has a very high throttle position that triggers a downshift. (the 5.3 I have in 2024 Suburban can only go to about 55% throttle before downshifting...and this is driving in L9. It is even lower if starting in 10th gear)

If you are in 10th gear (0.65 ratio), with 3.23 rear gear, and the downshift point is in the realm of 80% throttle, the bearings are intensely loaded.

The concern has been that this specific operational regime with 0w20 is so low on the stribeck curve that it is a knife edge from mixed lubrication scenario (i.e. not full hydrodynamic). So if the 0w20 degrades even a little bit then the mixed boundary lubrication is guaranteed. This will start incipient wear.

This is why way upthread I recommended you check in on your oil at a lower mileage. The acid number is way too high. This could be indicating an oxidation mechanism taking place. The more oxidized your oil is the more it is not oil and something else. And there is no room for error with this type of loading and such a low viscosity.

 

[jfoj]

Vladimir, I have said for a LONG time the 10 speed TCM programming in the newer 10 speed 6.2l put excessive LOW RPM HIGH LOAD conditions on these engines that was not the case with the prior generation with the 8 speed.

What you fail to realize here in the US we cannot drive at 100+ MPH for hours on end. While some people may drive 80 MPH, you cannot do this for hours on end. There are only a few places in the US with 80 MPH speed limits. The majority of the US highway speed limits are between 55-75 MPH.

The majority of the time the 6.2l operates at 1700 RPM or lower and will load the engine to 80+ percent before downshifting from 10th to 9th gear depending on the grade and this is usually only 100 RPM increase. At 55 MPH my 6.2l operates at 1200 RPM, nothing more than an high idle, but the engine is pretty much lugging or being very heavily loaded under low RPM conditions, about the worst case scenario for testing oil film thickness and durability.

The issue is the auto manufacturers have not speced the oil for the application, they are tying to make the engine survive with lower viscosity oils and under severe conditions this is inadequate and failures are occurring. We should all see this obvious problem, but many are too narrow minded to understand the big picture.

 

[Vladimir2306]

Vladimir, I have said for a LONG time the 10 speed TCM programming in the newer 10 speed 6.2l put excessive LOW RPM HIGH LOAD conditions on these engines that was not the case with the prior generation with the 8 speed.

What you fail to realize here in the US we cannot drive at 100+ MPH for hours on end. While some people may drive 80 MPH, you cannot do this for hours on end. There are only a few places in the US with 80 MPH speed limits. The majority of the US highway speed limits are between 55-75 MPH.

The majority of the time the 6.2l operates at 1700 RPM or lower and will load the engine to 80+ percent before downshifting from 10th to 9th gear depending on the grade and this is usually only 100 RPM increase. At 55 MPH my 6.2l operates at 1200 RPM, nothing more than an high idle, but the engine is pretty much lugging or being very heavily loaded under low RPM conditions, about the worst case scenario for testing oil film thickness and durability.

The issue is the auto manufacturers have not speced the oil for the application, they are tying to make the engine survive with lower viscosity oils and under severe conditions this is inadequate and failures are occurring. We should all see this obvious problem, but many are too narrow minded to understand the big picture.

Where do you get these numbers about 80% load? Today, just for fun, I was cruising at 60 mph, the engine gets 30-35% load. There is no 80% there. There, 70-75% appears only when you press the gas pedal.

 

[Vladimir2306]

Looks to me like the 10 spd keeps the engine loaded to a greater extent.

What is missing also is the context of the programmed downshifting points. The current configuration with the 10 spd has a very high throttle position that triggers a downshift. (the 5.3 I have in 2024 Suburban can only go to about 55% throttle before downshifting...and this is driving in L9. It is even lower if starting in 10th gear)

If you are in 10th gear (0.65 ratio), with 3.23 rear gear, and the downshift point is in the realm of 80% throttle, the bearings are intensely loaded.

The concern has been that this specific operational regime with 0w20 is so low on the stribeck curve that it is a knife edge from mixed lubrication scenario (i.e. not full hydrodynamic). So if the 0w20 degrades even a little bit then the mixed boundary lubrication is guaranteed. This will start incipient wear.

This is why way upthread I recommended you check in on your oil at a lower mileage. The acid number is way too high. This could be indicating an oxidation mechanism taking place. The more oxidized your oil is the more it is not oil and something else. And there is no room for error with this type of loading and such a low viscosity.

The previous 6L80 had the same gear ratios, and it also loaded the engine, and nothing. 0-20 worked great there.

 

[jfoj]

Where do you get these numbers about 80% load? Today, just for fun, I was cruising at 60 mph, the engine gets 30-35% load. There is no 80% there. There, 70-75% appears only when you press the gas pedal.

Dude, I have logged and gathered tons of data on my truck. Thousands of miles and hours and hours of logging.

You clearly are a lost sole. Sure cruising at 60 MPH on a flat road the engine will be lightly loaded. The issue is based on terrain and elevation changes and how long and gradual the elevation changes occur. Much of my driving is in areas where they are slight grade changes for 1/2-2 miles then the roads may flatten out then you may hit a gradual grade change again. During these grade changes is when the engine loading climbs to 80%+ loading for periods of time, then there may be a tipping point where the TCM may cause a downshift form 10th to 9th gear which will reduce loading but not my much because there is only about a 100 RPM increase in RPM, most people barely notice the downshift from 10th to 9th gear, but logging the data and watching in real time you will be able to see the RPM and gear changes.

While I do drive in some area higher and faster grade changes, these usually cause the transmission to downshift to 8th or 7th gear, the RPM increases more and the engine loading typically will be lower.

It really depends on the geography where you typically drive. Flat areas tend not to be such a problem and do not generate the high loading that is really the problem with the lower viscosity oil. I assume if you could track the failures and/or where the failures happened the terrain would not be dead flat.

Unfortunately no amount of discussion will open your eyes. You suffered a high mileage 6.2l engine failure under pretty extreme conditions with 0W20 oil, the way your engine was built was not likely the cause of the failure, if the build was problematic the engine would have never lasted as long at it did. You did not appear to have any advanced warning that there was excessive bearing wear, no oil pressure warning, just a catastrophic failure while driving for an extended period of time, towing a trailer, with the family, gear and a roof top carrier, pretty severe operating conditions and 0W20 oil was not up to the task. Pretty simple and straight forward oil related failure.

 

[Vladimir2306]

Dude, I have logged and gathered tons of data on my truck. Thousands of miles and hours and hours of logging.

You clearly are a lost sole. Sure cruising at 60 MPH on a flat road the engine will be lightly loaded. The issue is based on terrain and elevation changes and how long and gradual the elevation changes occur. Much of my driving is in areas where they are slight grade changes for 1/2-2 miles then the roads may flatten out then you may hit a gradual grade change again. During these grade changes is when the engine loading climbs to 80%+ loading for periods of time, then there may be a tipping point where the TCM may cause a downshift form 10th to 9th gear which will reduce loading but not my much because there is only about a 100 RPM increase in RPM, most people barely notice the downshift from 10th to 9th gear, but logging the data and watching in real time you will be able to see the RPM and gear changes.

While I do drive in some area higher and faster grade changes, these usually cause the transmission to downshift to 8th or 7th gear, the RPM increases more and the engine loading typically will be lower.

It really depends on the geography where you typically drive. Flat areas tend not to be such a problem and do not generate the high loading that is really the problem with the lower viscosity oil. I assume if you could track the failures and/or where the failures happened the terrain would not be dead flat.

Unfortunately no amount of discussion will open your eyes. You suffered a high mileage 6.2l engine failure under pretty extreme conditions with 0W20 oil, the way your engine was built was not likely the cause of the failure, if the build was problematic the engine would have never lasted as long at it did. You did not appear to have any advanced warning that there was excessive bearing wear, no oil pressure warning, just a catastrophic failure while driving for an extended period of time, towing a trailer, with the family, gear and a roof top carrier, pretty severe operating conditions and 0W20 oil was not up to the task. Pretty simple and straight forward oil related failure.

Does your car always drive at 80% load?) Seriously, or is it usually 30-35% as I said, with rare peaks up to 80%?)

 

[blanchard7684]

The previous 6L80 had the same gear ratios, and it also loaded the engine, and nothing. 0-20 worked great there.

There are more overdrive ratios with the 10 spd. By definition, not the same ratios.

I stand by my previous post. I sincerely suggest a careful re-read of it.

 

[Silverado4x4]

Does your car always drive at 80% load?) Seriously, or is it usually 30-35% as I said, with rare peaks up to 80%?)

Vald dont let this guy get to ya according to him every 6.2 on the road should be failing and there not he overlooks the fact that the crankshafts are defective and knows more then the GM engineers and loves to degrade people. I dont pay any attention to him anymore.

 

[blanchard7684]

Vladimir, I have said for a LONG time the 10 speed TCM programming in the newer 10 speed 6.2l put excessive LOW RPM HIGH LOAD conditions on these engines that was not the case with the prior generation with the 8 speed.

What you fail to realize here in the US we cannot drive at 100+ MPH for hours on end. While some people may drive 80 MPH, you cannot do this for hours on end. There are only a few places in the US with 80 MPH speed limits. The majority of the US highway speed limits are between 55-75 MPH.

The majority of the time the 6.2l operates at 1700 RPM or lower and will load the engine to 80+ percent before downshifting from 10th to 9th gear depending on the grade and this is usually only 100 RPM increase. At 55 MPH my 6.2l operates at 1200 RPM, nothing more than an high idle, but the engine is pretty much lugging or being very heavily loaded under low RPM conditions, about the worst case scenario for testing oil film thickness and durability.

The issue is the auto manufacturers have not speced the oil for the application, they are tying to make the engine survive with lower viscosity oils and under severe conditions this is inadequate and failures are occurring. We should all see this obvious problem, but many are too narrow minded to understand the big picture.

100% this. Exactly this.

 

[GMCnewbee]

You guys are giving me a headache. I should have started reading this later in the day.

 

[Vladimir2306]

There are more overdrive ratios with the 10 spd. By definition, not the same ratios.

I stand by my previous post. I sincerely suggest a careful re-read of it.

Seriously? 0.65 on 10L90 versus 0.67 on 6L80, is that so good? A whole 3%))) even below the statistical error of 5%)

 

[Vladimir2306]

Vald dont let this guy get to ya according to him every 6.2 on the road should be failing and there not he overlooks the fact that the crankshafts are defective and knows more then the GM engineers and loves to degrade people. I dont pay any attention to him anymore.

Yes, thank you, I am also tired of paying attention to all the nonsense that he writes in different topics. By the way, yes, judging by the statistics, only 5% of cars break down. This means that most likely at least 95% of owners simply pour oil according to the regulations and do not even know about possible problems