Ideas? Help with a DOD/ AFM Deleted 2011 Escalade 6.2

[kbuskill]

Gentlemen: I believe the problem has been found and solved, and the Good Lord has had great mercy on me that the truck didn't detonate before I fixed it.

The timing chain tensioner was completely obliterated, and the cam was able to flop all over the place. It is amazing how easy these LS family engines are to work on, it took no time at all to tear down and put a new timing chain on. Also, the buying the LS crank pully removal tool was well worth the money, as was the tool that locks the crank at the starter.

As per the generous information of Rdezs, I put in these new parts:

>Melling 10296 Oil Pump
>Cloyes 9-4205 Timing Chain
>Cloyes 9-5490 Timing Chain Tensioner
>AC Delco 12682000 Camshaft Solenoid
>AC Delco Camshaft Position Sensor 213-2836
>Ac Delco 12653140 Camshaft Phaser Magnet

The truck runs extremely smooth now, none of the surging at all or powerloss. It goes through all rpm ragnes smoothly and finally feels like it has more power than my 2004, so it looks like the problem had everything to do with the timing chain and nothing really to do with the DOD/AFM system after all.

Thanks much for the help everyone, I am absolutely thrilled to have this back together and so is my wife.

That is good, hopefully you won't have any more issues.

I would still very seriously consider replacing the torque converter or at very least having the PWM turned off to extend the life of the transmission.

The stock 6L80E converter seems to be the weak point and when they grenade they pump trash through the rest of the transmission which usually will require a rebuild. A good billet converter and a tune will make the transmission last a long time.

 

[rdezs]

Gentlemen: I believe the problem has been found and solved, and the Good Lord has had great mercy on me that the truck didn't detonate before I fixed it.

The timing chain tensioner was completely obliterated, and the cam was able to flop all over the place. It is amazing how easy these LS family engines are to work on, it took no time at all to tear down and put a new timing chain on. Also, the buying the LS crank pully removal tool was well worth the money, as was the tool that locks the crank at the starter.

As per the generous information of Rdezs, I put in these new parts:

>Melling 10296 Oil Pump
>Cloyes 9-4205 Timing Chain
>Cloyes 9-5490 Timing Chain Tensioner
>AC Delco 12682000 Camshaft Solenoid
>AC Delco Camshaft Position Sensor 213-2836
>Ac Delco 12653140 Camshaft Phaser Magnet

The truck runs extremely smooth now, none of the surging at all or powerloss. It goes through all rpm ragnes smoothly and finally feels like it has more power than my 2004, so it looks like the problem had everything to do with the timing chain and nothing really to do with the DOD/AFM system after all.

Thanks much for the help everyone, I am absolutely thrilled to have this back together and so is my wife.

That's the picture I thought I would see.... The symptoms kept screaming valve timing.

Are you able to make out any part number on that tensioner? Wondering if that's one of those low budget made in China...

I only see one problem left to deal with. You're going to be jealous of your wife's new set of wheels!

 

[Jeffdylanproctor]

I tried to find a part number on the exploded tensioner, but couldn't find any. You can see where the non-moving guide was being absolutely eat up by the timing chain though. I am very happy with finding this problem and it runs so good now. I would imagine the factory tensioner to have some sort of manufacturing marks or numbers on it, but this one has nothing, so who knows.

I plan on putting a new rear main seal in it at some point (it has a small leak I wasn't aware of till getting up under it several times, its not a major one yet, but you can see it developing) and I will put a new torque converter in there when I do that, there is no sense in removing a transmission and not putting one in.

I didn't mention it in the list of parts, but I also put a new thermostat in it (it is really hot right now in Tennessee) and obviously new gaskets on everything I took apart, and I am very pleased with how the truck is now. When I started it up after doing the timing chain and new oil pump, it had much more oil pressure and I am very happy with it!

 

[rdezs]

Excellent

 

[kbuskill]

I tried to find a part number on the exploded tensioner, but couldn't find any. You can see where the non-moving guide was being absolutely eat up by the timing chain though. I am very happy with finding this problem and it runs so good now. I would imagine the factory tensioner to have some sort of manufacturing marks or numbers on it, but this one has nothing, so who knows.

I plan on putting a new rear main seal in it at some point (it has a small leak I wasn't aware of till getting up under it several times, its not a major one yet, but you can see it developing) and I will put a new torque converter in there when I do that, there is no sense in removing a transmission and not putting one in.

I didn't mention it in the list of parts, but I also put a new thermostat in it (it is really hot right now in Tennessee) and obviously new gaskets on everything I took apart, and I am very pleased with how the truck is now. When I started it up after doing the timing chain and new oil pump, it had much more oil pressure and I am very happy with it!

How did the O-ring on the pickup tube look?

 

[j91z28d1]

I recently saw a pic of one where the truck was on the interstate doing 80, hit a big bump and just shut off. turned out it threw the timing chain off completely. these gen 4 ls engines seem to have timing chain issues at high mileage on top of everything else the older Gen 3s didn't have.


glad you found it.

 

[rdezs]

My guess it was one of those cheap Chinese imitation timing belt tensioners that you get when you buy the low budget AFM delete kit. Makes you wonder how many are out there.

The earlier LS engines did not have the tensioner. It's necessary on the VVT to keep tension while the cam sprocket makes adjustments. Without that tension, in theory it could rock back and forth creating drivability issues. Not to mention when suddenly the tension is taken out on one side, the chain snapping would definitely shorten its life.

 

[j91z28d1]

yeah, this other yukon was definitely stock. he's had it forever, still wanting to see how much damage was done. I can only guess the tensioner was back for a while before it tossed the chain..

the op here could definitely have had a China one, or maybe even reused the stock one as if he's a old school mechanic. wouldn't expect a timing chain to break.


I thought I read the ls3 cars without vvt/afm had tensioners as well. but I haven't had mine apart to see

 

[kbuskill]

I don't remember finding anything definitive, as far as mileage, on when GM recommended changing the timing chain, but when I was researching it way back when I believe 200k was kind of the consensus on life expectancy.

 

[rdezs]

The early 6.0 liter like the LQ4 didn't even have threaded holes for a chain dampener.....

 

[alpha_omega]

there's an inspecter at my work that has a older chevy truck with the 4.8. I heard it across the parking lot tapping away, I walked over thinking afm, but I didn't know it was a 4.8 at the time, they never got afm, I say man those lifters aren't going to make it home. he's like nah, it's been like this for years. he got the truck for free from someone, decided to drive it till it stopped but never has. he reved it up, the oil pressure came up and it stopped tapping. idled for a while, and started tapping again.

kinda amazing he's driven it on that forever and it doesn't seem to care. sounds like there's not enough pressure to pump up the lifter at idle.

if you're just daily driving these things around town and you don't have a hard tapping noise. I wouldn't worry about it. that low spec is probably actually fine.. it's something like 6psi at 1000rpm hot. not even a min as the 600 or less rpm these things idle at.

Any chance this is related to the manifold being cracked, old gaskets worn out or broken manifold bolts? I’m not familiar with the 4.8, but I know the 4.3’s did this and were also known for cracking a flywheel. Although that sound is MUCH different than the lifter tick/cracked manifold and/or broken manifold bolts.

So I went ahead and ordered the Melling 10296 oil pump and everything, mostly because I would like to open it up and see what it looks like, and I figure if I'm in there I might as well replace it.

It does have rattle than my 2004 with the 6.0, but it's not bad, in fact I have a friend with a 2009 Yukon that also has a little rattle going on and he's drove it like that for years.

I also am tempted to go ahead and put the new VVT solenoid in since I have it, along with all the AC Delco sensors

Same info as above. Have you checked the exhaust manifold to see if that tick isn’t related to the infamous “broken manifold bolt(s)”?

Something LS engines are very picky about are OEM sensors. Especially the cam and crank position sensors. (Since you will have the starter off to lock the flex plate in position, you might as well get a crankshaft position sensor as well. It's directly above the starter, takes 15 seconds to change.)

Always try to stay with Genuine GM/AC Delco on anything that connects to the harness. If one's not available, go for the Delphi brand.... They're basically the OEM supplier on many parts.

Example: 2003 Hummer. No codes. Would fail on the first start. Always started on the second start. My buddy that works at the local GM service department took it in for diagnosis. Couldn't find anything wrong. I told him to drop in a new camshaft position sensor, if a relearn didn't fix it. He said the one that's in there is sending the proper signal. I told him to replace it anyway.... I read somewhere on the forum that solved a similar issue. He called me back, couldn't believe it. Wanted to keep it overnight just to check it in the morning after it sat. It's fired up every single time since then. He showed me the sensor he removed, from the previous owner. Walker brand.

My Denali is original to me, and the Crankshaft Position Sensor I removed looked more like the Walker than it does the GM Genuine that I ordered as a replacement. I think that just has to do with who GM used as the supplier for that particular year.
The OEM GM Genuine camshaft position sensor that I ordered was an exact match of the one I am “attempting” to remove (after 19 hours of kicking myself in the ass - I may need to replace or at least remove the timing cover).

Can that be done by removing the two front pan bolts holding the timing cover from below, but without actually dropping the oil pan? Or does the oil pan have to come out?

 

[alpha_omega]

Gentlemen: I believe the problem has been found and solved, and the Good Lord has had great mercy on me that the truck didn't detonate before I fixed it.

The timing chain tensioner was completely obliterated, and the cam was able to flop all over the place. It is amazing how easy these LS family engines are to work on, it took no time at all to tear down and put a new timing chain on. Also, the buying the LS crank pully removal tool was well worth the money, as was the tool that locks the crank at the starter.

As per the generous information of Rdezs, I put in these new parts:

>Melling 10296 Oil Pump
>Cloyes 9-4205 Timing Chain
>Cloyes 9-5490 Timing Chain Tensioner
>AC Delco 12682000 Camshaft Solenoid
>AC Delco Camshaft Position Sensor 213-2836
>Ac Delco 12653140 Camshaft Phaser Magnet

The truck runs extremely smooth now, none of the surging at all or powerloss. It goes through all rpm ragnes smoothly and finally feels like it has more power than my 2004, so it looks like the problem had everything to do with the timing chain and nothing really to do with the DOD/AFM system after all.

Thanks much for the help everyone, I am absolutely thrilled to have this back together and so is my wife.

*I understand I’m asking answer to questions that may have already been answered, so without going back to page 1 of 13 and sifting through each post - here goes:

What’s the mileage you were at when you did the timing chain, or when you noticed the issues?

How long did it take you to do the timing chain swap?

Do you have the p/n for the removal tool you and @rdezs discussed? I’m about to place my RockAuto order. However, if I’m going to have the timing cover off to remove that little bastard of a cam sensor, and an already replacing the VVT magnet, I might as well replace the cam actuator solenoid valve (“bolt”) as well.
Considering my 2011 has less than 90k original miles on it, I don’t think there are any issues with my timing chain, but I’ll take a look while I’m in there.

 

[alpha_omega]

A few links for you. I've used both of these products on the last three AFM deletes.

Michigan Motorsports Oil Pan Oil pressure relief valve plug
https://a.co/d/jbcXce3

2 bolt girdle for oil pickup tube to pump
Z Whip Oil Pump https://a.co/d/dp6mYYH

These guys (Michigan Motorsports) are about 30-45min away from me. On the link you shared, it doesn’t mention the L94, but it does list every other Gen IV. Thoughts?

 

[rdezs]

It's the same.

 

[rdezs]

Any chance this is related to the manifold being cracked, old gaskets worn out or broken manifold bolts? I’m not familiar with the 4.8, but I know the 4.3’s did this and were also known for cracking a flywheel. Although that sound is MUCH different than the lifter tick/cracked manifold and/or broken manifold bolts.

Same info as above. Have you checked the exhaust manifold to see if that tick isn’t related to the infamous “broken manifold bolt(s)”?

My Denali is original to me, and the Crankshaft Position Sensor I removed looked more like the Walker than it does the GM Genuine that I ordered as a replacement. I think that just has to do with who GM used as the supplier for that particular year.
The OEM GM Genuine camshaft position sensor that I ordered was an exact match of the one I am “attempting” to remove (after 19 hours of kicking myself in the ass - I may need to replace or at least remove the timing cover).

Can that be done by removing the two front pan bolts holding the timing cover from below, but without actually dropping the oil pan? Or does the oil pan have to come out?

You can remove the timing cover by removing the harmonic balancer, and the water pump. Oil pan does not have to be dropped. All the bolts are accessible, although the lower left you'll want to use a 10 mm box end wrench cuz it's a little tight clearance for a socket due to the AC compressor

 

[alpha_omega]

You can remove the timing cover by removing the harmonic balancer, and the water pump. Oil pan does not have to be dropped. All the bolts are accessible, although the lower left you'll want to use a 10 mm box end wrench cuz it's a little tight clearance for a socket due to the AC compressor

Perfect. Thanks. Just wanted to make sure I didn’t need to order an oil pan gasket as well.

 

[rdezs]

Just a dab of RTV where the joint is between the oil pan, front cover and block on each side.

Harmonic balancer bolt is a torque to yield, you're supposed to replace it whenever you take it out. They're not expensive.

The other thing worth noting is the front seal, just like the rear main, are Teflon coated whether it's OEM or felpro. They go on dry.... Absolutely zero oil on the seal as well as the harmonic balancer where the seal rides. (Or it will always leak)

The centering tool readily available online from multiple sources is a real help when installing the front cover with the oil pan in place. It slips over the crankshaft snout and fits snugly in the seal bore in the front cover to ensure it's exactly centered. (If the oil pan is off, it's pretty much self-centering by sliding the harmonic balancer into the seal and tightening a couple bolts down) You'll find with the oil pan installed, and inserting the centering tool, you'll actually be pushing down and compressing the oil pan gasket a little bit to get it to center.

 

[rdezs]

If you're there staring at the harmonic balancer, look on the right hand side of the oil pan where you'll find a 10 mm bolt that holds the harness in place. Take that bolt out, and that will separate the harness from the front lip of the pen.

 

[alpha_omega]

Just a dab of RTV where the joint is between the oil pan, front cover and block on each side.

Harmonic balancer bolt is a torque to yield, you're supposed to replace it whenever you take it out. They're not expensive.

The other thing worth noting is the front seal, just like the rear main, are Teflon coated whether it's OEM or felpro. They go on dry.... Absolutely zero oil on the seal as well as the harmonic balancer where the seal rides. (Or it will always leak)

The centering tool readily available online from multiple sources is a real help when installing the front cover with the oil pan in place. It slips over the crankshaft snout and fits snugly in the seal bore in the front cover to ensure it's exactly centered. (If the oil pan is off, it's pretty much self-centering by sliding the harmonic balancer into the seal and tightening a couple bolts down) You'll find with the oil pan installed, and inserting the centering tool, you'll actually be pushing down and compressing the oil pan gasket a little bit to get it to center.

Getting it centered was the only part I was concerned about. I was thinking that it was easier to center it with the oil pan in place, and that’s when the harmonic balancer would help. Not the other way around. Glad I asked and then took the time to check for any responses.
I had a hell of a time with the camshaft position sensor. Spent way too much time pissing around with it, then decided to hell with it and bought a new OEM cover. Along with the plug and dual bolt mount for the oil screen/pickup tube.
The other thing I didn’t realize is the front seal needing to install dry on both the cover and the balancer. I wonder how many people make that mistake.
I have both a GM balancer bolt and an ARP bolt, but plan on using the latter for obvious reasons.
All looks good with the timing chain, I would like to drop the pan just to clean it out, but I just had that entire front suspension removed. Considering I’m under 100k on the Denali, I suppose it can wait until I do the AFM / DOD delete.