How to: NBS master cylinder swap for firm brake pedal

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nomad

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then comes the variable steering issue.

Actually EVO isn't an issue at all, you simply remove the EVO selonoid, install a standard PS pressure union/valve (easy find in a junk yard) use a pressure hose from a 96 (or the one included with my kit) and your good to go.

I dumped EVO some time back, easy mod.
Dan
 

nomad

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Thanks to the forum members who PM's me wanting to purchase the Hydroboost,

Retorq was first on the draw with the cash, congrats to him as he got a really nice unit at a steal!
 

MarkD51

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OK folks, just a quick re-hash, as I'm a new dumb guy here.

Vehicle is 1997 Tahoe LT, 5.7ci.

To do the NBS Master Cylinder swap, I need 1 new NBS (2002 Tahoe for say) Master Cylinder, and 1/2"-9/16 Threaded Adapter, and that's it?

I don't need a 2002 3/4 ton surburban MC, the 1/2 ton is the correct part to swap onto the 1997, correct?

I've never liked the brakes on this truck, they got a little better after upgrading to Stillen larger 3/4 ton Calipers, Slotted stock size Rotors, 3 Stainless Brake Hoses, and better Ceramic Pads, but recently my brakes have gone to total hell.

Might need a Booster, not sure just yet, will have to check-test.

I'm going to take my truck soon for this brake service, do a good bleed, but might consider the MC Swap as well.

Will a brand new NBS MC from Oreillys-A-Zone be fine, or do I have to run to Chevy for such?

Sorry for being a pain, and will appreciate you folks educating me.

At this point I don't think I'll need a Hydroboost conversion, just would like making my brakes work as they used to, and a bit better from the pathetic stock set-up.
Thanks folks, Mark
 

nomad

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MarkD51,
My suggestion to you is to read as much as this thread as you can stand. The answers to all of your questions are here. Many have completed this mod and have been pleased, others have not.

IMHO I have tried the NBS MC and was not pleased with the results, many here will tell you the NBS will give you a firmer pedal, that is absolutely true, but if you have a properly working brake system in your Tahoe you will find the original factory setup will actually stop in a shorter distance then a system using the NBS system.

Another issue, the NBS system was based on rear disc brake technology and the piston sizes are different then the obs mc, this results in more pressure to the rears where you will find them locking up before the fronts. True the ABS will try to compensate for this and work ok on a dry surface. But in the rair or snow look out!

Another complication is the ABS system, unless you can have someone exercise the ABS system in coordination with a pressure bleed you will never achieve correct braking.

Finally and again my opinion the only true and effective solution to the Tahoe's (burb and Yuk) lackluster brakes is a retrofit to a Hydroboost system. I have not heard one bad review of this upgrade. These are usually found on 3/4 ton burbs and trucks and tahoes with diesel engines. It is some extra work but you wont find better braking system for your truck! This was a final mod I was working on when I sold my Tahoe.

In answer to your original question if you choose to experiment with an NBS check with Oreilys, the part number you need is: nmc2881, used in a Silverado (2000-02) 1/2 ton. You will also need a 1/2 in to 9/16 adapter for the front line of the MC. Here are 3 part numbers:AGS #BLF-26C , Edelman #258306 or Weatherhead #7912. This will allow you to go from OBS to NBS MC without having to change lines or re-do flares.

One last suggestion, take your Tahoe somewhere you can do some braking tests and do some panic stops. Measure the results before and after. You might be surprised. A firmer pedal does not necessarly mean a faster stopping truck!

Good luck!
Dan
 

MarkD51

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Hello Dan, Thank you for your reply.

Yes, I've must've combed through over 200 responses, and comments on this topic here, and all the additional links others have provided, going into Hydroboost, and basically every other mod under the sun, like rear Discs, pads, rotors, bleeding, brake hoses, etc.

I would've thought, that like some seem to claim, that the NBS Master Cylinder retrofit is thought to be able to push a greater volume of fluid, thus a better efficiency, and more effective positive braking as a result?

I would imagine, if one spent the money, on some huge Brembo, or SSBC 13" Rotors, 4, or 6 piston front Calipers, that yes, braking performance should no doubt be much better but of course at a very high cost. I know well such large Rotors will not be compatible with stock wheels, just not enough clearance.

I'd like better brakes, but not at $3K to $4K for such.

I want to go bigger custom tires, and wheels, but right now, the most important thing to address is very bad brakes on my Tahoe.

I've previously mentioned some mods I have done, and the truck only has 39,800 on the Odo, but I of course know, mileage don't mean a thing, the truck is pushing 17 years of age, and like anything, time takes its toll.

I'll be studying some more, to decide whether such meager investments to the Brakes are a worthwhile expenditure.

Thank you very much again. Would indeed like hearing more forumite's comments on such. Mark
 

SunlitComet

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As long as you just changed the MC and not sucked in air to the controlled abs passages any air from installing the MC will bleed right thru the abs to the wheels. If the abs cycles with air passing it to the wheels Then it will take more steps to get it out. In fact service manual says if you bench bleed the mc and are only replacing that alone then bleeding of all the brake lines in not needed. While the nbs has a firmer feel is an illusion because you are fighting the smaller wheel cylinders compared to disc brakes. If you want instant super duper response with little effort and some serious inertial force the hydro-booster with a JB8 booster and MC. with all other components being in good condition I would not put loose item in the seat and slam on the brakes. Mind you will have a higher risk of being rear ended if always waiting till the last minute to apply the brakes because the feel so right. Some vehicles can't slow at the same rate. That is why you see people steering to the side when someone slams the brakes.
 

nomad

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...I'd like better brakes, but not at $3K to $4K for such.

I want to go bigger custom tires, and wheels, but right now, the most important thing to address is very bad brakes on my Tahoe...
Mark

Based on what you said in your reply Hydroboost is your best option, you can easily (with a little work) track down a complete unit in a salvage yard and complete the retrofit for under $400.00 and if you go to a upull and pay much less then that.

Considering you wish to go to larger tires this will also provide the additional force needed to stop the extra kenetic energy they produce. Check with any good 4x4 center that does upgrades and they will tell you hydroboost is the only way to go with huge tires and wheels.

I recently posted with pictures exactly what you need to do a full conversion in this thread.

Keep us posted with your project!
Dan
 

MarkD51

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Based on what you said in your reply Hydroboost is your best option, you can easily (with a little work) track down a complete unit in a salvage yard and complete the retrofit for under $400.00 and if you go to a upull and pay much less then that.

Considering you wish to go to larger tires this will also provide the additional force needed to stop the extra kenetic energy they produce. Check with any good 4x4 center that does upgrades and they will tell you hydroboost is the only way to go with huge tires and wheels.

I recently posted with pictures exactly what you need to do a full conversion in this thread.

Keep us posted with your project!
Dan

I deeply appreciate you folks advice, and help.

Re-reading all the posts again, I see you folks have given wise advice, the NBS MC will probably not be the way to go. I surely don't wish to sacrifice a firmer pedal feel, for longer stopping distances.

My brakes were actually working pretty decent with the Stillen larger Calipers, Slotted Rotors, and Stainless Braided Hoses. Then last summer getting the AC fixed, my brakes went to shit in a handbasket.

I almost ran the damn mechanic over pulling into the shop.

Something has gone bad, and I'm not sure at this point, could be a booster, could be a MC, or could be air in the system? The Stillen Calipers look to be in great shape, but are they setting up? Same with the back wheel cylinders, and I have adjusted them (I have 11" drums)

The same shop wants to charge me $75 minimum for a Bleed, and I don't know what sort of bleed they'll do? Maybe one guy in the cab, and another at the wheels, and I gather this is not optimal.

I might be willing to at least first spring for a Power Bleeder Kit, with Tank, but I am going to have to find the adapter plate that will fit onto that stupid large OBS MC rectangular Resovoir Cap?

I see Summit sells these power bleeders, anyone know which is the correct model I need?

I'd just be happy getting my brakes back to the way they used to work for the time being. Right now, I don't trust driving the truck at 30mph.
 
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SunlitComet

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mityvac sell several type of bleeder and if sold separately the adapters too. Amazon has the cheapest prices usually. Are you finding the pedal pressure harder to stop or the same but sinks and hardly stopping. You can also use a second person to depress pedal while you put a clear hose on bleeder and into bottle to do it that way. May not cost you any labor.

---------- Post added at 07:51 PM ---------- Previous post was at 07:44 PM ----------

If you want to pressure bleed, this kit can do it and you will either need the:

MVA811 face seal secured with double chains or, rectangular shaped master cylinders ranging in
size up to 3½" x 6" (90 mm x 150 mm)

MVA812

Rectangular shaped master cylinders ranging in
size from 3½" x 6" (90 mm x 150 mm) to 4¼" x 7¾" (108 mm x 200 mm)

I forget the size of MC at the moment.

---------- Post added at 07:52 PM ---------- Previous post was at 07:51 PM ----------

Could do a vacuum one too. Just need to understand what it does when bleeding.
 

MarkD51

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Thank you SLC.

That looks like that would be what's needed. Not cheap though. I see NAPA makes an adapter too, which basically looks like a stock Master Cylinder Cover, with a hole drilled in its center, a fitting attached, and a bar brace at the top for securement. Again not cheap, more money than the vacuum unit.

I imagine one, with a little inventiveness, some hand tools, and some fittings could easily duplicate what would be needed. Could probably pick up a MC Cover at a junk yard for a few dollars, and convert it. Reckon the important thing would be insuring a tight positive seal at the MC.


Will this sort of pressure bleeding from the MC also insure that the ABS Unit is also fully bled too, or will codes, or other special tools still be needed for such to properly bleed the ABS?
Thanks again, Mark
 

SunlitComet

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Just get a neighbor to push on the pedal for you. Less expensive. Some sections of the abs will be bled but not the areas normally cut off from the mine piping when brakes are locking up. You can induce lock-up to sorta mimic what the abs does when reacting to it but you will probably never new if you locked up both fronts and the rear. On top of that not only does it need to dump pressure the pump must also run to apply braking on its own and push the air into the distribution passages to push out air as well. There are six separate valves in the abs. If you did not get air in the abs while in active mode I would not worry about it so much unless braking force is uneven or you can have someone run the functional test on it.
 

MarkD51

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Just get a neighbor to push on the pedal for you. Less expensive. Some sections of the abs will be bled but not the areas normally cut off from the mine piping when brakes are locking up. You can induce lock-up to sorta mimic what the abs does when reacting to it but you will probably never new if you locked up both fronts and the rear. On top of that not only does it need to dump pressure the pump must also run to apply braking on its own and push the air into the distribution passages to push out air as well. There are six separate valves in the abs. If you did not get air in the abs while in active mode I would not worry about it so much unless braking force is uneven or you can have someone run the functional test on it.

Stupid question maybe, but with a conventional "two man bleed", should the engine be running,or no? Does it make a difference?
Thanks, Mark
 

MarkD51

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Just get a neighbor to push on the pedal for you. Less expensive. Some sections of the abs will be bled but not the areas normally cut off from the mine piping when brakes are locking up. You can induce lock-up to sorta mimic what the abs does when reacting to it but you will probably never new if you locked up both fronts and the rear. On top of that not only does it need to dump pressure the pump must also run to apply braking on its own and push the air into the distribution passages to push out air as well. There are six separate valves in the abs. If you did not get air in the abs while in active mode I would not worry about it so much unless braking force is uneven or you can have someone run the functional test on it.

Whether at some past point in time, I allowed air into the system by doing some unorthodox method of work, or bleeding, that's a possibility?

When I installed the two Stillen 3/4 Ton Calipers, Pads, Slotted Rotors, and the three Stainless Braided Hoses to the Tahoe, I first drained the MC Resovoir of old fluid. (simply with a Turkey Baster)

The mechanical Aspects of installation all appeared to go just fine. Everything buttoned up properly, and the only mechanical issue I had to rectify was the flexibility of the two front Braided Brake Hoses, that would've been rubbing the insides of the front tires, so I simply used two ultra heavy duty Tie Wraps to hold-tether the Hoses away from the Tires a bit.

After installation, and bleeding by myself with a Vacuum Type Bleeder, with Cup, then was the big moment, the test drive.

The brakes at first were pretty horrid, I had quite a bit reduced braking efficiency on the truck, and of course was shaking my head "oh boy, now what?"

Taking the truck on a deserted unused street in the area, I took the Tahoe up to about 40-45 mph, and pushed the pedal as hard as I could. I almost went through the windshield. The ABS activated, and the truck hauled down from speed very quickly.

Thinking back, I thought I might've drained the Resovoir a bit too much, virtually totally emptying it before I refilled with fresh?

The other, was that the Pistons within the Caliper Bores were slightly seized, or I didn't get a full bleed though all the lines?

Anyway, after that, the brakes did appear to work quite well. It seemed that the Slotted Rotors, and better composition of the Pads enabled the truck to stop much better than stock, especially after the Pads were warmed up a bit. Pedal feel was good, seemed firmer than before.

The truck with the new brake components worked flawlessly for quite many 1000's of miles across country towing a Cargo Trailer.

Until recently, currently, my brakes are working quite poorly.

I like doing work myself, and sadly have little in the way of help here in NM.
I just earlier ordered a Power Motive Power Bleeder Kit, with Tank, and Alu Square Plate Adapter. I'll again buy a qt or two of good fluid, and try again with a full system bleed, and go from there.

I see no leakage anywhere on the vehicle, and will do an update when I can.

At this point, I will of course hold every component on the system as suspect, the MC, Booster, and all brake parts at the wheels as possibly faulty. The ABS still appears to work correctly, no premature locking up, no brake lights, etc.
Mark
 

MarkD51

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no brake warning lights at all? not even at vehicle start?

At start up, yes, I get all the usual dash lights that come on, then go out. No unusual issues there. Bleeder should be here Friday, maybe this weekend I'll get to toy with the truck
 
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MarkD51

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Here's another small update, and some comments about how my brakes feel. I took the truck for some gas this morning, and traveled about 40 or so miles, combo of street, and highway.

The brakes actually don't seem as bad as they were. This could be due to the crappy "one man bleed" I did a few months back, and some removal-cleaning of the rear drum adjusters (11" drums) last week or so.

The brakes work positively, I did check for things this morning like booster bleed-off-leakage, and this seems to be OK. also no leaks anywhere.

The truck comes down well from any speed, stops no worse than it ever did, no pull, etc., ABS appears to be functioning perfectly, no issues there.

What I note, and what I particularly don't like, is that it takes about 2 or so inches of pedal travel before the brakes begin to bite, and with those top 2 or so inches of initial pedal travel, the pedal seems hard, and firm. I note this "firmness of intial travel seems to vary ever so slightly, that when initially applying after a while of driving, it is firmer than when again activating the brakes. Seems the second, or third time it is a little easier to depress the pedal.

Is this typical? Is this the infamous crappy OBS Brake' s signature qualities? Or?

Thanks again for any comments-help you folks can help me with.
Mark
 
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SunlitComet

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Hard to push pedals in the first couple of inches is the vacuum booster holding you back. your booster might have malfunctioning seal or valves inside the unit from your description of what is going on. your first push on the pedal should be easy.
 

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