Thinking of selling my new 6.2L Denali...

[jfoj]

@viven44

The 5.3l does have fuel dilution issues as well, but the problem is the 6.2l is configured to operate at lower RPMs and higher Torque than the 5.3l, mainly because the 5.3l cannot supply the same amount of Torque. When you put the excessive Torque on the bearings with diluted 0W20 oil, you cannot continue to run on a film of oil. So you start to self destruct pretty quickly. The 5.3l has more safety margin for diluted fuel than the 6.2l due to lower Torque loading, the 5.3l uses more RPM to get the job done.

About your question about why the Honda did not burn as much oil, lots of variables here, some of these are facts, some are assumptions. Could even be the way the vehicle is driven, I also would assume the Honda is not operating under as extreme Low RPM/High Torque operation

A few differences

4 cylinders vs 8 cylinders more ring gap, more rings with more gaps
Larger bore diameter, more oil film on greater surface area to be washed down and mixed in cylinder to be burned
V8 has larger oil capactiy which causes engine to take longer to fully warm up and all parts to expand, at 50F ambient it takes 30 minutes of driving for oil to warm up
DFM causing vacuum pumping in deactivated cylinders to include Decel With Fuel Cut Off
More blowby and crankcase pressures on V8 as 2x number of cylinders, larger bore diameter, more crankcase pressures due to more pistons pumping and longer stroke, causing more oil vapors to pass PCV system back into intake path

I would really look into why the Honda is "Making Oil". Assume it may be a turbo motor?
Might check to verify the engine is getting up to proper engine temperature, thermostat could be soft and causing engine to run cool, overly rich and not warm oil up enough to "cook off" fuel? I know the Dallas area has had a lot of cold weather this Winter, maybe the owner has been starting the car and allowing it to idle for warm up, not good idea. Maybe a lot of short driving trips?

Suggest owner cut the OCI in 1/2 for a while and check oil every 2nd fill up to see what is going on. Also smell oil when checking for excessive fuel as well.

 

[Miami-Dade]

STAY ON TOPIC AND NO MORE BICKERING.

OTHER WISE THIS THREAD WILL BE LOCKED OR DELETED.

i CLEANED UP SOME POSTS HERE BUT NEXT TIME SOME MEMBERS MIGHT GOING ON A PERMANENT VACATION.

 

[viven44]

@jfoj the honda DI oil dilution problem is a well known one and the engines are able to handle it and just move along. Yes I agree its difficult to compare engine makes/models but my point is unless we know for a fact that the engines that failed were low on oil, its difficult to point the issue to oil dilution and burning. And I have advised him already to change oil more frequently

If the 5.3L has oil dilution issues, I am not seeing it. We check the dipstick every couple of weeks or after a long trip (old truck habits!).

 

[blanchard7684]

And yes , all business are in businesses for only one reason,,, to make money. And the pay structure for the mouth breathing morons at the dealerships absolutely encourages them to rush and take any and all shortcuts they can.

In case any other readers were wondering how the pay structure for dealer techs works it goes something like this.
- Each tech has an hourly rate.
- Each job has a number of billable hours assigned to it, otherwise known as "book time".
-When a tech completes job, he (or she) gets paid however many hours of their daily rate the book time called for regardless of the actual time taken.

So, if a tech gets a job with a book time of eight hours done in fours hours, they still get paid for eight hours. If they can get two of those jobs done in one day, ,,,bam,, they just got 16 hours worth of pay in one eight hour work day.

This pay structure actively encourages them to rush, take short cuts, use impact guns on everything and basically do a half-*** job because their pay literally depends on it. So its no real wonder they don't bother to actually stop and think about what's going one, because that would impact how fast they can get done and on to the next.

Is it the tech's fault,,, is it the dealership managements fault,,,, is it GM corporate's fault,,, I guess pick whichever one you want to blame, but that's the crappy system as it is. No one troubleshoots, no one thinks, and doing so would actually cause them to make less money, so they just read the screen and do what it says as fast as they possibly can.

And we wonder why it takes five trips and six months to fix anything.
...

You can make the same argument about straight time: it encourages or incentivizes people to stay on a job as long as possible because their pay depends on it. When you are paid by the hour, then more hours is more pay. The customer gets fleeced.

As you are busy trying to inform yourself how mechanics make money ( in order to polish a pet narrative) you should be well aware that warranty jobs 1 ) pay well under what you call book time 2) rarely pay for diagnostic time beyond a half hour, if any at all and 3) don’t pay for test driving to verify repair.

There is no dealer out there regardless of manufacturer who is having techs clear 16 hours on an 8 hour actual time with warranty jobs.

It does not exist.

you can rail on mouth breathing techs but you are just showing yourself to be ignorant as hell.

How about the c average engineers that designed it?

How about the factory workers who built it?

How about the slimy executives who are clueless but get the golden parachute?

Nah let’s kick around the guys who have to buy their own tools at astronomical cost for the pleasure of working at a fraction of their normal pay for warranty jobs that are exploding in frequency .

Yeah makes perfect sense.

 

[jfoj]

@viven44

You can have fuel dilution that does not add oil. You can have fuel dilution that causes enough oil consumption/flash off to keep the oil level fairly stable. But at the end of the day fuel dilution will reduce the oils ability to protect the metal and bearing surfaces, loss of viscosity. High pressure areas will be impacted first, things like valve lifters/roller lifters and rod bearings would be the first to suffer if there is not enough safety margin.

Also note, when I was driving my 6.2l on a 2+ hour trip with no passengers or anything loaded in the vehicle, my oil temps were running about 222F after about 1 hour on the road with ambient temps around 50-60F. At this temp, a 5W30 has about the same protection as a 0W20 at 212F. I would hate to see what is going on inside one of these 6.2l with fuel contaminated 0W20 at 222F for 4-6 hours, much less higher oil temps when towing or in triple digit ambient temps.

And I have the Max Towing package, larger radiator and possibly slightly larger oil cooler in the radiator, but this is just an assumption as I have not physcially torn apart the 2 different radiators to verify the size of the internal oil cooler.

This is a decent write up - Fuel Dilution

 

[DenaliCountry]

Are these known complaints self reported or do dealerships automatically report them if an engine goes kaboom? Cause that failure rate is probably inaccurate if it's the former.

There's no way there are only 39. My engine just let go at 34K miles and I know for a fact I'm not on that list of 39. The 39 complaints are 39 owners who filed formal complaints. I was trying to figure out how I put my name on that list but no clear answers at least on the internet.

 

[DenaliCountry]

Well I’d bet the actual number of failures is closer to 39 than it is to 800,000 . . . Even if it were in the thousands, it’s a tiny percentage in relevance to vehicles produced. But who knows for sure

like the old saying .. truth is probably somewhere in the middle

Theres more than 39 complaints of engine failure on this forum alone. I guarantee its in the 100's of thousands of failures...

 

[DenaliCountry]

This is pretty good feedback. I don't have any immediate plans to get rid of it. If I were going to get rid of it, I would be replacing it with a GMC pickup with a gas engine.

I am right there with you. My 22 is in for an engine replacement and I am debating on whether or not I keep it. I was on the fence of buying another truck, but this puts me in more of a position to give it strong consideration. My biggest problem is not knowing the full scope of the issue and which model years are most effected by the issue. Because I would also be looking at a 6.2l truck.

 

[DenaliCountry]

I think you are nuts. That is a nice car. Your risk is the electronics, as it is with any car made today. This forum is a very small subset of GMC Yukon buyers. A few have had problems. That is what you read about here. But it has nothing to do with the vast majority of Yukon's out there regardless of year. My 2011 with AFM only went 203,000 miles before I pulled the plug and bought my 23. And that was with AFM that was more primitive. The Queen put most of those miles on, but when I drove it on vacation it got exercised. Nothing, as in NOTHING, ever happened. Best car I ever owned.

I bought a 2023 equipped like yours. It could be going to hell behind a wrecker. I can't tell you until I get 200,000 miles on it. So far with 30,000 miles nothing has gone wrong that the dealer did not cause. And it had to do with a bad front end alignment. Directions were in the owners manual. Tech could not read, but few of them can these days.

But bad stuff rarely happens. I think the weakness on most if not all cars these days is the electronics. Regardless of make. That is why I have the extended warranty. I will continue to drive a 2023 GMC Yukon Denali XL.

This was always my perspective about forums where most people come for solutions to problems, therefore, the problems will look prevalent.... and then my 2022 Denali ate a rod at 34K miles shortly after the announcement by the NHSTA. In this instance, I start to question if there is a much larger issue to be looked into.

 

[viven44]

Because I would also be looking at a 6.2l truck.

It has been a while since I have bought a truck, but if I was buying one, in this day and age I would go for a 3/4 ton as they have the comforts of 1/2 ton and more capable/reliable. The 2500 pickups with the 6.6L are problem free to my knowledge and lack all the unnecessary extras (DFM, Auto/Start stop).

 

[PPV_2018]

Theres more than 39 complaints of engine failure on this forum alone. I guarantee its in the 100's of thousands of failures...

You guarantee? How could you guarantee something that you can’t prove ?

Hundreds of thousands implies multiple hundreds.. like 200k+

200k of 800k is 25%.. if a quarter of T2 gen trucks had already suffered engine failures then every day when you got on the interstate the shoulders would be littered with broken down T2 trucks like soda cans and candy wrappers

If there were 1000 complaints on the forum, it is still closer to 39 than 800k.

 

[Blueinterceptor]

What weight oil would you consider for the 6.2

 

[DontTaseMeBro]

There's no way there are only 39. My engine just let go at 34K miles and I know for a fact I'm not on that list of 39. The 39 complaints are 39 owners who filed formal complaints. I was trying to figure out how I put my name on that list but no clear answers at least on the internet.

I think we’ve had probably well over 20 of those failures reported just here alone. Heck, mine had its engine replaced before I bought it.

 

[DontTaseMeBro]

What weight oil would you consider for the 6.2

5W30

 

[jfoj]

For all the 6.2l owners that have "6.2l Range Anxiety", not how long between fill up, how long between engine failure, Suggestions for "Range Anxiety"

 

[blanchard7684]

I am right there with you. My 22 is in for an engine replacement and I am debating on whether or not I keep it. I was on the fence of buying another truck, but this puts me in more of a position to give it strong consideration. My biggest problem is not knowing the full scope of the issue and which model years are most effected by the issue. Because I would also be looking at a 6.2l truck.

Normally I would agree that such a move is a rash decision. However there is a disquieting number of folks who have had a second and even third engine fail.

 

[Antonm]

There is no dealer out there regardless of manufacturer who is having techs clear 16 hours on an 8 hour actual time with warranty jobs.

I literally hang out and drink with a dealer tech occasionally that gets 12 hours of pay/ day working anywhere between 4-8 hours /day. And AFAIK he doesn't discriminate between warranty and non-warranty, he takes whatever.

His dealer has a board that the service writers put the job paperwork/ keys on. The techs go up to this board and pick the job they want to do (assuming they have the appropriate certifications for that job). And its first-come -first pick.

Dude gets to work between 9:00- 10:00 in the morning, goes up the board , grabs whatever jobs are left that no one else has picked (which are usually the least desirable), rushes through them to get his 12 billable hours that day (because that's management policy, max of 12 hours billable/ day), then leaves. Sometime he leaves at 2:00pm because he's maxed out his billable hours for that day,.

Blame whomever you like for the the way it is,,, but there is no troubleshooting, and no understanding, and really no thinking about the actual issues the vehicle are brought in for happening,,,, there is only following what the screen says.
...

 

[WalleyeMikeIII]

I literally hang out and drink with a dealer tech occasionally that gets 12 hours of pay/ day working anywhere between 4-8 hours /day. And AFAIK he doesn't discriminate between warranty and non-warranty, he takes whatever.

His dealer has a board that the service writers put the job paperwork/ keys on. The techs go up to this board and pick the job they want to do (assuming they have the appropriate certifications for that job). And its first-come -first pick.

Dude gets to work between 9:00- 10:00 in the morning, goes up the board , grabs whatever jobs are left that no one else has picked (which are usually the least desirable), rushes through them to get his 12 billable hours that day (because that's management policy, max of 12 hours billable/ day), then leaves. Sometime he leaves at 2:00pm because he's maxed out his billable hours for that day,.

Blame whomever you like for the the way it is,,, but there is no troubleshooting, and no understanding, and really no thinking about the actual issues the vehicle are brought in for happening,,,, there is only following what the screen says.
...

Well, that may be how he and his colleagues work. I know it is not that way at every dealership. Here's the thing:
-At some point, if the service completely sucks, and people cannot reliably get their vehicle fixed at a given service shop...they ultimately will go elsewhere.
-Now, is it possible that this particular dealership, where your friend works, has enough business, and GM has enough issues that this ship will stay busy infinitely, yes.
-But, when the surveys get back to GM, and GM decides this dealership has major issues w/ Customer Sat...then maybe things change. Maybe they dont.
-I personally have used a local, smallish town dealership, where the peple have pride in their work, have been there 25+ years, and actually care theat the custoemr is satisfied, the vehicle is fixed, and they have pride in their work...and guess what, I drive 20 miles out of my way to go there...might this be the exception to the rule? Sure.

What you say may be true at a large number of dealerships...but, perhaps, it could also be that there are those out there who really actaully want to do a good job, take pride in what they do, and may actually be fast at what they do and get paid 12 hours for working 6...anything is possible...sounds to me like at the dealership you mention...maybe they need a new service manager..or maybe they don't care and eventually will run out of customers. Or, maybe, it is just all about the money and they will survive...time will tell.

 

[Antonm]

Well, that may be how he and his colleagues work. I know it is not that way at every dealership. Here's the thing:
-At some point, if the service completely sucks, and people cannot reliably get their vehicle fixed at a given service shop...they ultimately will go elsewhere.
-Now, is it possible that this particular dealership, where your friend works, has enough business, and GM has enough issues that this ship will stay busy infinitely, yes.
-But, when the surveys get back to GM, and GM decides this dealership has major issues w/ Customer Sat...then maybe things change. Maybe they dont.
-I personally have used a local, smallish town dealership, where the peple have pride in their work, have been there 25+ years, and actually care theat the custoemr is satisfied, the vehicle is fixed, and they have pride in their work...and guess what, I drive 20 miles out of my way to go there...might this be the exception to the rule? Sure.

What you say may be true at a large number of dealerships...but, perhaps, it could also be that there are those out there who really actaully want to do a good job, take pride in what they do, and may actually be fast at what they do and get paid 12 hours for working 6...anything is possible...sounds to me like at the dealership you mention...maybe they need a new service manager..or maybe they don't care and eventually will run out of customers. Or, maybe, it is just all about the money and they will survive...time will tell.

Won't call the dude a friend per se, our kids play on the same school sports team, so we just both have reason to be at the same places at the same time.

And for away games, well, he's belly'ed up to same hotel bar as I am in the evenings.

It has been my experience that service and pride in ones work, regardless of the industry, is pretty much no longer in existence (maybe it never has been, IDK). Not just car mechanics, buts roofer, carpenters, plumbers, tax preparers, medical doctors, you name it,,, good luck even getting a call back, much less actual quality work done.

Some call it a cultural shift or "new normal", but taking pride in ones work and doing a good job are now seen as what the suckers do because you can get paid the same (or more) for doing less.
...

 

[blanchard7684]

I literally hang out and drink with a dealer tech occasionally that gets 12 hours of pay/ day working anywhere between 4-8 hours /day. And AFAIK he doesn't discriminate between warranty and non-warranty, he takes whatever.

His dealer has a board that the service writers put the job paperwork/ keys on. The techs go up to this board and pick the job they want to do (assuming they have the appropriate certifications for that job). And its first-come -first pick.

Dude gets to work between 9:00- 10:00 in the morning, goes up the board , grabs whatever jobs are left that no one else has picked (which are usually the least desirable), rushes through them to get his 12 billable hours that day (because that's management policy, max of 12 hours billable/ day), then leaves. Sometime he leaves at 2:00pm because he's maxed out his billable hours for that day,.

Blame whomever you like for the the way it is,,, but there is no troubleshooting, and no understanding, and really no thinking about the actual issues the vehicle are brought in for happening,,,, there is only following what the screen says.
...

Is he a mouthbreather too?

I used to be a dealer tech for almost a decade. Prior to that worked in an independent shop for even longer. My entire social circle and family were techs either running a shop, working in a shop, or in a dealer.

Your occasional drinking buddy either has the sweetest gig in all of automotive history or is embellishing for dramatic effect or the dealership has an exceptionally strange way of managing workflow.

Assuming the jobs are posted at random (they should have a dispatching system), there is no way he is not discriminating in some form or fashion.

For instance...

engine light on silverado truck. Diag time pays .5 hr. hook up scan tool see what it says. Fire it up in your bay to recreate the issue. Nothing found or can't replicate the issue?

See ya.

The tech isn't going to devote their life to it like it is a science experiment that will alter the course of humanity.

Are we seriously expecting a tech to spend a whole or half day for .5 hours of pay (some dealers pay 1 hour and fight with the OEM about it later on) diagnosing an issue that can't be easily replicated, or that "tech support" can't offer any guidance, or TSBs and SSMs aren't covering the issue.

If the tech closes it out at this point the job won't come back to him if the issue reoccurs. If he pursues it further to an actual scope of work, and it doesn't fix the problem, then he has to do it for free. There is a huge risk here.

Lets say the tech spends a bit more time (maybe an hour or hour and a half with the issue) in hopes of finding a probable cause that could turn out to be a decent job that he is confident in.

So in this example say it is an oxygen sensor is showing up dead as a doornail. Low risk. fairly easy job.

Put truck on lift. 5 minutes.
Order parts. 5 minutes.
Check over the O2 harness see if rodents got to it. Looks good. (15 minutes)
Take o2 sensor out using a special tool snap charges criminal amounts for. 30 minutes after you are done fighting with the connector.
Parts finally show up 20 minutes later.
You check to make sure it is right part. (5 minutes)
Replace o2 sensor and reconnect (10 minutes.)
Pull truck down off lift (5 minutes)
Fire up truck and check to see if the sensor is reading (5 minutes)
Pull truck up to front parking area (5 minutes)

So you have about 195 minutes devoted to something that will pay you a flagged hour of 30 minutes and about 25 for the O2 sensor job. So 55 minutes out of 195.

This isn't an issue with the tech it is the system they operate in.