Myself and others stumped Never seen issue before .... ever!

[Teamiez]

Same goes for the stabilizer bar. If any of those parts are flipped around or the hardware isn’t to torque specs - in some cases over torqued can cause issues as well, that can lead to the toe in / toe out problems you have.

Just a random thought, does your vehicle have autoride? If so has your suspension yaw rate sensor been checked?

He seems to have redone the shocks and springs to a new level as well as a bunch of stuff
———————————————————
Being that I have the lovely zw7 nivomats and knowing the cost to replace the 2 I decided to go with billstiens zw7 conversion with the series before the 5100. So once I received every thing I installed. After installing front hubs center link pitman arm idler inner outer tierods upper control arms and lower ball joints front shocks and rear shocks with provisioned springs correcting the sag that occurs from the diffrent spring rates from those who just place conventional shocks in place of the nivomats, I perform a rough alignment

 

[houstontaylor]

Ok so I'm never one to ask anything much on forums, generally I can find from previous post if ever I get stumped but I'm not to proud and not able to find an issue anywhere near mine...... nor can a few others .... had to make sure it wasn't me tripping or missing something simple... which I was neither. So 2001 yukon ...billstein zw7 full conversion (springs and shocks....BTW I will never do that again...pay for the outrageous priced nivomats) stock 20 in trail boss wheels and tires, 2 in wheel spacers, 13 piece front suspension kit from 1a auto and 2 new wheel hubs...

So here is my issue and after explaining the issue I will follow up with the above listed in a detailed time line this showing how now of the above listed contributes in any way shape or form to my issue....

Problem: when I put the truck into reverse, as I'm rolling, my front wheels begin to "cave" in. By that term I mean the front two wheels simultaneously both begin to toe in (forwardmost parts of tires point to 1 another) as well as they will both "k" in (upwardmost of the tires also point to 1 another)... naturally it'll drag the wheels also pulling truck downward in the front forcing me to start a 35 point turn sequence just to back into my driveway or make any attempt to turn around... once I place into drive and start rolling the wheels will pull back into its correct position as if it never took place..... wtf kinda **** is this?!

Now let me take you through my diagnostic process ruling out anything I could think would contribute both the maintenance and aftermarket add ons I did and also anything I could think period could possibly be a cause both direct or indirect

So after obtaining the truck from my brother, I retired my 1st yukon due to blown 4-L-******, he only had the truck about a year but 2 months prior to trading me trucks and shortly before it was stolen outta his driveway in Dallas, he had replaced all 4 tires. So first thing I did was take my factory 20 in honeycombs and swap them with the 16s he had. I work out of town alot so immediately I was due in Kansas, so off I went. After returning from Kansas I noticed it was time to replace the ko²s I had wrapping the honeycombs, they were only about 40% before the trip but noticed heavy wear this along with my experience driving it for the first time sparked my ordering the 13 piece front end kit from 1a auto and new shocks. Being that I have the lovely zw7 nivomats and knowing the cost to replace the 2 I decided to go with billstiens zw7 conversion with the series before the 5100. So once I received every thing I installed. After installing front hubs center link pitman arm idler inner outer tierods upper control arms and lower ball joints front shocks and rear shocks with provisioned springs correcting the sag that occurs from the diffrent spring rates from those who just place conventional shocks in place of the nivomats, I perform a rough alignment and would have been good with it but because I planned on replacing the tires soon after and the amount of miles I put on the truck for work I decide to take it in for an alignment. After I get the truck back I begin to notice my camber is off so I take the truck back to the shop he takes it in after seeing that it's was in fact bad. He calls back and I pick truck up again and haul ass across town for some errands before another upcoming job. I hop out when I get where I was going only to notice truck still had camber issue worse than before. Next day I go to shop again reluctantly he looks truck over because I noticed on my printout the tech set machine up with 15 in wheels (as to which he claimed didn't matter)...even though I specifically pointed out they were 20s but he calls me back explaining the truck was good as per machine after correcting the data. So upon picking up my truck he explains what my problem was claiming my bumper was the issue not wheels...( because I had just installed a 2015+ silverado hd custom bumper) saying my install wasn't factory thus giving an illusion of wheels being off in reality it was my install.... well as bulshit it was I wasn't going to argue that bumper or not the camber was there but wife. So uneasy of the trip with my tires dragging my tool trailer I begin searching for a set of pulloffs to get me through till I get mine wrapped in new rubber. I end up purchasing a buddies set off 22 in honeycomb replicas. He totaled his truck and they had set in his garage for the last 3 yrs. Threw them on the beast hooked up and was gone. About 15 hrs into the 21 hr drive I began to notice a small vibration and it progressively got worse... just my luck so it was known I would be replacing the rubber on this set too prior to my return home to replace the previous set. Now at my next fillup roughly have 3 to 4 hrs left the vibration felt was now far worse and noticed the wheel behind the one who's bands separated now causing a bubble, had a huge chunk missing showing wire. Fml... so during the job I goto a local shop replacing all four tires... should be good right.... **** no I get an hour out. From the house and have a blow out on one of the 4 brand new tires. Go figure I get a defective tire... contacted shop directed me to manufacturer who directs me to a local authorized dealer to handle warranty. Take the truck and they tke the wheel we goto front then they give a subtotal... lol not sure the confusion here but it was stated from the start this was warranty.... well they denied warranty due to the tire was improperly installed... da fuq you mean? And how is that my problem. Well it blew because the tire was mounted on a 22x9 and tire calls for a 22x10.... that transpired a year and a half battle with discount tire and general tire. So in that year and half I was forced to purchase another set of rubber for my original honeycombs or again search some cheap takeoffs. Find a set of oem trail boss with 20 miles on them luckily my plant manager was looking to sell. So I install them and decide to again align my truck with a diffrent shop because I refused to deal with a shop that had no sense or integrity because they were brand new as well would be the 22s and my 20s soon. Get a 1 year warranty and prepped for an upcoming Illinois job following behind it with a Wisconsin job and back home. Well halfway to Illinois upon my routine on the road fillup checks over my truck and trailer I begin to notice wear on the brand new wheels. Wtf well I can't do much about it and forced to roll on until I could find time to address it. Now the wear noticed was low and behold my inner most of the wheel... much like one would get with they're camber is fkd like I stated countless times. By the time I hit Wisconsin I realized a clunk everything I backed in... da fuq? Well find my camber/caster hardware is moving. Throwing it in and out no matter how tight I run these they begin to slip.... so I read forums and find that these are known to move over time and they make locking type plates to pin it still and prevent slipage... order and install before I take my truck back to now Firestone for the warranty alignment. That's been over 2 months ago and still haven't taken it due to my inability to get it roughed in enough to drive it on the new 22s I finally got replaced. So before Illinois I put on 2 in wheel spacers to fill up the wheel wells better after the pocket flare fender flares installed. I began thinking that was causing the scrubbing/dragging so removed them for a while and found they were not a contributer considering it still did it without them so I reinstalled. Well next I thought maybe it could be the lift keys I ran to pick up the front end due to it already looking low it really looked low with the oem custom hd bumper the 2015+ having a much greater height overall compared to its 2001 cousin. Rolled that out again with or without still was a issue. I raised front wheels off ground and performed a quick check of the front end again by grabbing top & bottom of wheel rocking verified ball joints still good next side to side verifying they were good. Then bared under the tire verifying wheel bearings all good no play so equipment failure or wear is rules out I check the pitman and idler also no issues there. I check lower control arm bushings after reading that cammed bushings can be installed for those with a need for additional 1 to 2 degrees to correct alignment so a bolt head shows some what looked to movement. But nothing of such to even be remotely noticed or constitute the amount of movement of the caved it wheels. But I plan on finding and replacing the bushings because in my eyes that is the only contribution left not replaced


Yes I rough aligned it recently pulling tape as a reference I have even adjusted to both in and out of specs neither of which helped.

Wtf is the issue?! Now later I plan on setting up a few gopros under as I roll forward and backwards to replicate the issue recording as much underneath to watch in motion. Because as far as hardware nothing has moved.

Yes the removable cross member is in place as it should be...
Never have ibever even heard of any **** like this .... please help figure wtf. Sorry for the in depth post and thank in advance..

Worn engine mounts can allow the engine to interfere with the steering linkages. A damaged engine mount on my 2003 Tahoe was allowing a steering linkage to damage the transmission cooler lines.

 

[Anthony06]

He seems to have redone the shocks and springs to a new level as well as a bunch of stuff
———————————————————
Being that I have the lovely zw7 nivomats and knowing the cost to replace the 2 I decided to go with billstiens zw7 conversion with the series before the 5100. So once I received every thing I installed. After installing front hubs center link pitman arm idler inner outer tierods upper control arms and lower ball joints front shocks and rear shocks with provisioned springs correcting the sag that occurs from the diffrent spring rates from those who just place conventional shocks in place of the nivomats, I perform a rough alignment

Ok so I do not have an alignment issue... per se. Everything was put on a machine and verified after every upgrade or replacement. My truck tracks just fine no pulling 1 way or the other camber and caster all with spec. My issue is only when reversing. In reverse both the front wheels cave in with both toe and camber

 

[Anthony06]

Worn engine mounts can allow the engine to interfere with the steering linkages. A damaged engine mount on my 2003 Tahoe was allowing a steering linkage to damage the transmission cooler lines.

It just seems odd that both wheels cave in together pulling truck downward. Yet nothing is moving that should not be. I figured only way they both could possibly cave together was if my center link allowed it by that meaning I don't even know how it would be possible but the pitman and idler failing but nothing is moving that shouldn't. Now my sway bar bushings are worn and I did see play within the bushing but that will not cause the caving of the wheels

 

[Anthony06]

He seems to have redone the shocks and springs to a new level as well as a bunch of stuff
———————————————————
Being that I have the lovely zw7 nivomats and knowing the cost to replace the 2 I decided to go with billstiens zw7 conversion with the series before the 5100. So once I received every thing I installed. After installing front hubs center link pitman arm idler inner outer tierods upper control arms and lower ball joints front shocks and rear shocks with provisioned springs correcting the sag that occurs from the diffrent spring rates from those who just place conventional shocks in place of the nivomats, I perform a rough alignment

Yes yes a lot was done in attempt to correct this issue and as stated it was aligned there after every install by a laser machine. I only roughed it in to go less than a mile to the shop. And I'd put my nuts on the line as far as rough in. Wifes 2012 ram 1500 before I bought it from my buddy he would burn through some racks. Told him he needed to upgrade cause the 35s on the 24x14s makes for a heavy ass wheel would not listen I replaced 6 racks in that truck before he got aggravated with it and sold it to me lol but I told him every time after align align align cause I didn't want him to come back and say I fkd the tires up. ****** up but ppl are shifty like that in any case as stated 6 racks had to force him to goto align after buying it he told me he took it in the 1st time they didn't Even adjust it due to it being in spec so second time he almost didn't go but decided he had some time again truck was good h e admitted the last 4 times he didn't even go so I can pull it in pretty damn close

 

[Anthony06]

That has got to be some of the craziest videos i have seen good job.The only thing that could make that suspension bind and go up several inches is the torsion bars flexing.I would start their and see whats up with that.In the one video you can see the one end of torsion bar go up several inches and with the bolt you screw up or down to control the load it shouldnt be moving at all.I would point your camera at that adjustment bolt on the torsion bar and lets see what that is doing.Great effort on making the videos.Im betting 80% of mechanics would be puzzled.To lift an entire suspension shock control arms everything it has to be a strong part twisting or flexing-my first guess torsion bars

Now I've had crazy excessive body roll since doing the zw7 to conventional conversion,, which everyday I regret the nivomats are soooo much better especially towing, but yesterday I was with my buddy taking him downtown, and as said body roll has been bad but it seemed as if maybe it was worse. I noticed in a video my sway bar bushings were bad but I drive the **** out of my trucks so I know their in and outs in any given scenario almost that being said my front felt more spongy and after realizing that going over some large bumps or whatever the extra bouncyness or floating if you will I heard my tires barking with each coinciding hop... so my buddy suggested maybe I didn't clock the keys right when I changed them and so there is not enough pressure on the wheels.... at first I denied but started thinking possibly it makes the most sense of everything right now then I remembered pretension for the uppers I wonder if the lowers would too. Cause he has a 99 ext cab with 6 inch lift and he swears he didn't clock his right either but his being opposite being to stiff. But I can swear with the keys only 1 flat will line up.othetwise you can't slide it in its hole and channel. So is that a thing? Preload/pretension on the torsion bars? I figure any more on my keys I'll be with that cali squat bs they got trending and f that I'll pay for tires every 2 weeks before I ever get seen like that dumbass **** lol

 

[Anthony06]

This is the video that shows the rear of the torsion bar moving up and back down 2-3 inches at least.This has the adjusting bolt on it and under a massive amount of force-the end of that should not move at all just going in reverse.Seems like the bolt is coming off the keys-im still going with torsion bars in wrong or something of that nature.You can also see when the rear of the torsion bar starts moving its picking up the control arm and raising the vehicle.Look at your adjuster bolts and keys again-make sure torsion bars are on correct.

I just had posted a reply on someone's asking about that. So both my yukons are my first experience with a torsion set up ... odd to me for a 2wd I was under impression only 4wd ran a torsion set up thus my knowledge is moot cause I never had a reason for a 4wd. I'll go anywhere in my 2wd without fear just so long as my winch works that is lol. But is that a thing yesterday my buddy suggest maybe there wasn't enough force on them to keep them still , cause his 99 ext cab he thinks is to much. So can the keys be clocked improperly? I thought only 1 flat would line up... I'm a millwright by trade so I marked the torsion bars upon removing outta habit but the keys I matches the flats and reinstalled. Cause it seemed I wouldn't have another choice on install

 

[Anthony06]

Same goes for the stabilizer bar. If any of those parts are flipped around or the hardware isn’t to torque specs - in some cases over torqued can cause issues as well, that can lead to the toe in / toe out problems you have.

Just a random thought, does your vehicle have autoride? If so has your suspension yaw rate sensor been checked?

No auto ride just the smooth ride chassis or whatever they call it it is the self leveling autoride rpo zw7. Carries the conventional shock set up in front with nivomat shocks in rear that self level according to the load

 

[George B]

Try a heavy duty ratchet strap between the wheels to the front and pull them inward. Force the cave in and see if you can find what moves.

 

[George B]

It just feels like it’s something simple that is overlooked. Even though it seems like its all been covered.

 

[Anthony06]

If you can, get one more video of those 2 bolts to the right of the Torsion Spring, kinda close. Make sure to hit a few small bumps like you did in the video above.

Judging by the dirt/grime I am seeing on the lower control arms. I am guessing that bushings/lower arms were not part of the kit. And my eye is telling me that there is the problem..

BUT.. it should be doing the opposite of whats its doing if thats the case. Me and 2 of my mechanics agree on this.

So I am at a loss..

Originally I chocked it up to the lower bushings cause yes you are correct the kit didn't come with lower bushings. And the other night I crawled under it to see and 1 of the bolts had looked like it possibly moved a slight bit. But not anywhere close to explain the excessive caving in. If baffles me nothing nowhere gave in to allow the caving and toeing in. With as much as they equally and that being something else is they equally pull down and in so I figured to achieve something like that either both upper ball joints would have to have snapped or the pitman and idler arms give somehow cause that center link I thought would have to drop quite a bit to allow both to equally drop so much. But after my buddy's suggested the torsion bars not being clocked right to keys I'm starting to think that's the only think that would make any sense of this is that the bars are not putting enough pressure on the wheels to keep the tracking correct in reverse. I'm just not familiar with torsion set ups thought they only were 4wds and I have never had a need for a 4wd so my knowledge with it is moot

 

[Anthony06]

That has got to be some of the craziest videos i have seen good job.The only thing that could make that suspension bind and go up several inches is the torsion bars flexing.I would start their and see whats up with that.In the one video you can see the one end of torsion bar go up several inches and with the bolt you screw up or down to control the load it shouldnt be moving at all.I would point your camera at that adjustment bolt on the torsion bar and lets see what that is doing.Great effort on making the videos.Im betting 80% of mechanics would be puzzled.To lift an entire suspension shock control arms everything it has to be a strong part twisting or flexing-my first guess torsion bars

Thank you I tried to be as explicit in detail on the original post as well as capture as much on cam. Because just leisurely explaining my issue I felt would only cause dismal with simple **** like alignments bad.. etc... as if I wouldn't think to get an alignment prior to posting lol but I can't knock it cause I've seen people post some **** like that. And can feel the anger of someone who assumed that's been done , as myself or anyone else would assume , just to find that a key step was disregarded prior to post. That's why I'm very choosing in how I interact on here lol but I know despite the rifraff a forum can have that there are really knowledgeable people in the shadows watching and waiting on that real issue of someone seeking. I appreciate everyone's time and consideration on helping me with this.

 

[George B]

I am intrigued by this and am looking forward to seeing it solved.

 

[Anthony06]

Try a heavy duty ratchet strap between the wheels to the front and pull them inward. Force the cave in and see if you can find what moves.

I would only if I hadn't seen that nothing moves under load. My truck will put a far heavier load than I could ever pull by means of a strap. Buy I get what you mean. Theoretically only thing would be the torsion bars but I've seen all affected areas **** could move in this and with the trucks forcing it in reverse only thing that moved was the upper control arms hardware jumped outta place but that was forcing it in reverse so much it stopped itand I was able to hop out of truck and it stay in reverse just sitting not moving nowhere. But after forcing and them fighting each other it slammed my adjustment hardware to the frame and had to re adjust after correcting

 

[Anthony06]

How about posting a printout form the alignment shop?

I will dig that out stand by... and now thinking back on it I wanna say I though my caster was out on paper but can't remember if it was before or after I took it back cause they had 15s as wheel size after I explain it had factory wheels but not from same generation that I had 20s.... as to which he said it didn't matter ... uh yeah guy it does otherwise it wouldn't allow provisioning for such. This the same tech who notified me upon picking up that it still pulled and I needed to look into replacing them to correct it..... OOOOOOR you could Lear how to align ppls **** and why it's important to check tire pressure prior to even attempting aligning vehicle. ...some ppls kids I swear lol

 

[Rocket Man]

Interesting…

 

[alpha_omega]

Since you said it won’t occur under load, and since you don’t think the ratchet strap idea will work, have you tried putting it up on Jack stands and then putting it in reverse? To ensure that it’s under driven gear that causes the issue. You could go so far as removing all four tires to give you room to look for any play.

 

[George B]

I would like to see proof that I’m wrong with the ratchet strap idea. I mean, we are stumped anyway so what is there to lose?

 

[Fless]

I would like to see proof that I’m wrong with the ratchet strap idea. I mean, we are stumped anyway so what is there to lose?

Time and effort, and a possible diagnosis. Or ruling out a cause.

I know, yours was a rhetorical question.

 

[corvette744]

Torsion bar keys are wrong or bars in wrong its only my opinion but thats all it can be.I can jack my tahoe up with the rear of the torsion bar it doesnt move yours are moving 3`4 inches just going in reverse and i see it raising the control arms.Alignment will be fine if your not putting that torsion bar under stress like i see it is.When you turn your torsion bar screw up or down i changes you alignment drastically im sticking with that.Put a block of wood on rear of torsion and slowly jack it up bet it moves up alot.Your keys can be indexed wrong its in their take them out again-make sure their the right ones.