Lost the 6.2 (was: May have Lost the 6.2)

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viven44

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FWIW, had my first paid oil change using 0W-40 yesterday.
Dealer charged me $25.65 per quart (P/N 19432867 was listed on the invoice for the oil)

So, LOF was ~260 including Labor, Filter, Shop Supplies, Tax, blah...OOF

Oriley Auto Parts has the Mobil 1 Dexos SuperCar on the shelf for $13.99/qt...

But hey, at least I don't have a blown engine...happy motoring.

just saw this on the main L87 thread... wow.. that's a good chunk of change... I'd have a good mind to ask for a refund or credit given that it was not what your engine needed clearly at the time. ("PICO test" didn't do its job) but its not the dealerships fault so I get it that they may not be the ones to punish.

Oil viscosity change to 'vette spec 0w40 - instead of 6.6L L8T spec 0w30 - does two things.
Second is to help move more of a product - 0w40 - that most normal people normally avoid.

I don't know the quart to quart price comparison, but assuming that L8T can use 5w-30 (from what I know that's the spec'ed oil), that should have been the pick to add the safety margin vs. 0W-40 which is a high dollar commodity apparently. $25 / quart seems a bit high... (I'm used to paying $17 per 5 quarts of supertech Walmart oil.)
 
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Marky Dissod

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$25 a QUART? I regularly get ROBBED by my local parts store for Valvoline Restore & Protect 5w30 @ $12 a quart.
I see why some people would like to change it half as often.
 
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WalleyeMikeIII

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A couple updates:
1 - I penned an e-mail to GM direct earlier in the week asking if they could assist, and they called me back yesterday.
- Guy on the resolutions team I was speaking with said mine was the first he had dealt with that had the recall remedy with a passed test and subsequently failed. He said he was engaging the corp supply chaain folks to try and expedite an engine to my dealer. I called my dealer and gave them a heads up we had this conversation.
- Resolutions team member also asked about alternative transportation, I told him I had a Malibu from Eneterprise, and that I wished I had something more comparable to my Denali, esp with Holiday travel coming up. Told him I had been authorized for a large SUV, but the local Enterprise office didn't have any. I mentioned they had some large SUV's from another manufacturer, but I was restricted to GM by GM. He said he would work on that.
2- My dealer called me this morning, said GM had reached out to them, and thanked me for letting the dealer know that was happening. My advisor told me they had one of their courtesy vehicles back, so I dropped the Malibu off at the dealer and they gave me a crew cab Sierra with 1600 miles on the clock. Enterprise will pick up the Malibu there. So my transportaiton got a bit better.
 

tom3

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It's a real shame that you have to go through all this. This is absurd!
 

shekmark

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Walleye…did they give you any indication on how long it takes to get a motor? Also, any idea if it’s a replacement exactly like we have…potential for bearing failure?
 

KMeloney

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Walleye…did they give you any indication on how long it takes to get a motor? Also, any idea if it’s a replacement exactly like we have…potential for bearing failure?
Of course you’re going to get exactly what you had, but hopefully without the potential for it to seize. ‘24 (beyond a certain month) and newer engines are supposed to be outside of the potential-failure window. But we’ll see.
 

West 1

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First sorry for the troubles you guys are having with the failed engines. Second, I would be very happy to be getting the new engine installed rather than living with an engine you don’t trust.

I was pleased to read you are getting a new radiator, oil cooler and lines along with the new engine as the old parts can trap metal from your failure and the metal can’t be flushed out. In a running engine with hot oil flowing under pressure that metal can migrate back to your bearings and cause future failures.
This is true in both engine and tranny failures but many times is ignored causing proper rebuilds to fail at young ages.
 
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WalleyeMikeIII

WalleyeMikeIII

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First sorry for the troubles you guys are having with the failed engines. Second, I would be very happy to be getting the new engine installed rather than living with an engine you don’t trust.

I was pleased to read you are getting a new radiator, oil cooler and lines along with the new engine as the old parts can trap metal from your failure and the metal can’t be flushed out. In a running engine with hot oil flowing under pressure that metal can migrate back to your bearings and cause future failures.
This is true in both engine and tranny failures but many times is ignored causing proper rebuilds to fail at young ages.
The GM Guidance on engine replacements for this issue is in the Special Coverage Bulletin N25249003. You can see it includes the radiator and engine oil cooler lines.
 

CMoore711

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Details:
Odometer at 44,780
Recall was performed and passed pico test in June at 38k, been on 0W-40 since then.
Had a paid oil change at 43,200 about 2 weeks ago, along with front and rear diff fluid change, transmission fluid and filter, transfer case fluid, and replaced the battery.

The biggest head scratcher for me is how short the time frame is from “PPP” Post PICO Pass test (thanks @KMeloney ) to failure.

In your case we’re talking 6K +/- miles. That’s nuts!

We’re not 3-4 years and 60K-80K+ miles after the PICO recall test. You’re barely 1.5 oil changes later then failure.
 
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WalleyeMikeIII

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The biggest head scratcher for me is how short the time frame is from “PPP” Post PICO Pass test (thanks @KMeloney ) to failure.

In your case we’re talking 6K +/- miles. That’s nuts!

We’re not 3-4 years and 60K-80K+ miles after the PICO recall test. You’re barely 1.5 oil changes later then failure.
Yes, I’m as dumbfounded as you. It just sort of reeks of the fact that this pico test isn’t perfect, and there’s going be some more fails out there.

I sure would like to know what the engineering or manufacturing process changes are on the engine that’s coming my way as a replacement.
 
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WalleyeMikeIII

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You mean, besides a somewhat improved warranty?
There is no improved warranty...I have the special coverage under N25249003 which I have had since May. That is what it is giong to be. I appreciate the extra coverage, but I sure would ike to uderstand what has been done to mitigate the actual out of spec crankshafts and mitigate the sediment left behind. I'll always be nervous to drive this thing off the beaten path (like to my favorite fishing hole in Canada), which is the reason I have it in the first place.
 

CMoore711

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Yes, I’m as dumbfounded as you. It just sort of reeks of the fact that this pico test isn’t perfect, and there’s going be some more fails out there.

I sure would like to know what the engineering or manufacturing process changes are on the engine that’s coming my way as a replacement.

I would be curious what type of answers you would get if you started asking detailed questions about this? I suppose the responses or depth of answers you would receive would depend on two things:

1. Your relationship with the dealership and their service department.
2. How firm you actually pressed the issue until you got additional information/answers.

I wonder if the new L87 engine you're getting even has a new part number than the previous "defective" L87 motors?
 

B-train

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That just reinforces the idea that the PICO test isn't very effective.

Keep us posted on your replacement timeline -- and also on any feedback if you've suggested to GM and/or your dealership that maybe the PICO test doesn't do what it's supposed to.
Reddit has many cases of the the PASSED test that then failed shortly thereafter - yukon, trucks, etc. I think it's a publicity stunt band aid to try and buy time/limit the financial loss.
 

West 1

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Engine bearing quality and crankshaft finish is technology that has been understood for well over 40 years now. We used to supply GM with Main and Rod bearings for many years. I have seen the process from design to testing. At least up till 2019 when I left as the company was bought out. Maybe the new owners let the true engineers go??? Maybe the new owners decided it was cheaper to bring in bearings from China, manufacturing was split between the USA/ Michigan and Mexico when I left.

GM claims the crankshaft finish was less than perfect and that could certainly cause issues, maybe GM relaxed crankshaft finish so they could build new cranks 5% faster? Maybe they went off shore for bearings and the new supplier did not have the technology needed to make functional parts?

Hard to say without getting actual engineers that have the knowledge to look at the bad parts. The parts will tell the story. I have looked at thousands of failed engine bearings in 40 years. Sometimes a microscope was needed and small particles could be retrieved from the used parts. Those particles could be examined and determined exactly where in the engine the particles originated. It is not magic. How to determine the cause is a well documented process. At least it always was up until 2019 when I was last aware of process used.

In the old days once the parts were designed before GM would accept them as a production run actual dynometer tests were done on multiple running engines and they were put under thousands of hours of testing to see when and how they failed. They were exposed to low octane fuel to watch how they held up under detonation, exposed to high RPM tests, put in severe driving tests, tested with perfect oil and less than perfect oil. Everything was known and proven before GM accepted the design.

Ford insisted on a 300 hour wide open throttle test on new piston designs! That was over 12 days wide open throttle with the engine at max HP RPM on the dyno, if max hp was at 5600 RPM it would run there wide open throttle for over 12 days to meet the 300 hour test. There were about 8 dynomometer's in the bearing lab, 26 dynomometers in the piston ring lab, more in the piston lab, many more at the gasket lab These demanding tests were used to test many parts, everything from spark plugs, water pumps, injection systems, gaskets, bearings, rings, pistons. Everything had to work to run the engine under heavy loads for extreme testing.
I remember the engineers even introducing nitros to engines to determine failure points if an engine did not fail in normal testing.

I understand computers have taken over much of the actual testing and when done right all is still well. GM dropped the ball with these 6.2L engines, to continue building engines with these bearing problems over a few years is absolute negligence. They ignored the problem hoping it would only affect a smaller number of engines. All parts we supplied had to have identifiers stamped on them. You could pick up a used part and know what plant built it, what day, month and year it was built and what shift built the part that day. If there were problems you could trace it back and determine what went wrong on that specific day. In manufacturing parts were checked multiple times before shipping, visual inspections and electronic inspections were done. Core samples were taken to verify the metallurgy on schedule during production. The ball was dropped at GM or standards were relaxed causing this issue.

The engineering department at GM knew the cause and made it known to corporate GM management long before the public heard anything. GM gambled most of the engines would get out of warranty and lost. Now they are trying to present a positive spin to keep customers. OK, I feel better after sharing what little I know about engine parts supply and manufacture, keep in mind my information is going obsolete since I have not been involved at all since 2019. I would still trust the replacement engines. No way would they not fix the actual issue before shipping more engines. ( they might use up the existing inventory first but newly produced engines will be good ). We have not read of any supplier being blamed (yet) which says it was not the bearings fault they are failing.
 

Stbentoak

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It really comes down to FOD or debris in the engines. Out of spec components. Poor supplier and internal quality control. No REAL traceability.... Zero receiving inspection of product from a new poor-quality supplier. (New suppliers should always face much higher scrutiny for the first six months of product reception. Until their processes are proven..) And somebody unwilling to pull the emergency stop when they found out they had a problem that could be a showstopper.
 

2024 White Tahoe

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Engine bearing quality and crankshaft finish is technology that has been understood for well over 40 years now. We used to supply GM with Main and Rod bearings for many years. I have seen the process from design to testing. At least up till 2019 when I left as the company was bought out. Maybe the new owners let the true engineers go??? Maybe the new owners decided it was cheaper to bring in bearings from China, manufacturing was split between the USA/ Michigan and Mexico when I left.

GM claims the crankshaft finish was less than perfect and that could certainly cause issues, maybe GM relaxed crankshaft finish so they could build new cranks 5% faster? Maybe they went off shore for bearings and the new supplier did not have the technology needed to make functional parts?

Hard to say without getting actual engineers that have the knowledge to look at the bad parts. The parts will tell the story. I have looked at thousands of failed engine bearings in 40 years. Sometimes a microscope was needed and small particles could be retrieved from the used parts. Those particles could be examined and determined exactly where in the engine the particles originated. It is not magic. How to determine the cause is a well documented process. At least it always was up until 2019 when I was last aware of process used.

In the old days once the parts were designed before GM would accept them as a production run actual dynometer tests were done on multiple running engines and they were put under thousands of hours of testing to see when and how they failed. They were exposed to low octane fuel to watch how they held up under detonation, exposed to high RPM tests, put in severe driving tests, tested with perfect oil and less than perfect oil. Everything was known and proven before GM accepted the design.

Ford insisted on a 300 hour wide open throttle test on new piston designs! That was over 12 days wide open throttle with the engine at max HP RPM on the dyno, if max hp was at 5600 RPM it would run there wide open throttle for over 12 days to meet the 300 hour test. There were about 8 dynomometer's in the bearing lab, 26 dynomometers in the piston ring lab, more in the piston lab, many more at the gasket lab These demanding tests were used to test many parts, everything from spark plugs, water pumps, injection systems, gaskets, bearings, rings, pistons. Everything had to work to run the engine under heavy loads for extreme testing.
I remember the engineers even introducing nitros to engines to determine failure points if an engine did not fail in normal testing.

I understand computers have taken over much of the actual testing and when done right all is still well. GM dropped the ball with these 6.2L engines, to continue building engines with these bearing problems over a few years is absolute negligence. They ignored the problem hoping it would only affect a smaller number of engines. All parts we supplied had to have identifiers stamped on them. You could pick up a used part and know what plant built it, what day, month and year it was built and what shift built the part that day. If there were problems you could trace it back and determine what went wrong on that specific day. In manufacturing parts were checked multiple times before shipping, visual inspections and electronic inspections were done. Core samples were taken to verify the metallurgy on schedule during production. The ball was dropped at GM or standards were relaxed causing this issue.

The engineering department at GM knew the cause and made it known to corporate GM management long before the public heard anything. GM gambled most of the engines would get out of warranty and lost. Now they are trying to present a positive spin to keep customers. OK, I feel better after sharing what little I know about engine parts supply and manufacture, keep in mind my information is going obsolete since I have not been involved at all since 2019. I would still trust the replacement engines. No way would they not fix the actual issue before shipping more engines. ( they might use up the existing inventory first but newly produced engines will be good ). We have not read of any supplier being blamed (yet) which says it was not the bearings fault they are failing.


Your post was very interesting - with a little speculation thrown in.

And I speculate the general public (GM’s customers) will never know the true story behind this engine failure debacle.
 

B-train

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Engine bearing quality and crankshaft finish is technology that has been understood for well over 40 years now. We used to supply GM with Main and Rod bearings for many years. I have seen the process from design to testing. At least up till 2019 when I left as the company was bought out. Maybe the new owners let the true engineers go??? Maybe the new owners decided it was cheaper to bring in bearings from China, manufacturing was split between the USA/ Michigan and Mexico when I left.

GM claims the crankshaft finish was less than perfect and that could certainly cause issues, maybe GM relaxed crankshaft finish so they could build new cranks 5% faster? Maybe they went off shore for bearings and the new supplier did not have the technology needed to make functional parts?

Hard to say without getting actual engineers that have the knowledge to look at the bad parts. The parts will tell the story. I have looked at thousands of failed engine bearings in 40 years. Sometimes a microscope was needed and small particles could be retrieved from the used parts. Those particles could be examined and determined exactly where in the engine the particles originated. It is not magic. How to determine the cause is a well documented process. At least it always was up until 2019 when I was last aware of process used.

In the old days once the parts were designed before GM would accept them as a production run actual dynometer tests were done on multiple running engines and they were put under thousands of hours of testing to see when and how they failed. They were exposed to low octane fuel to watch how they held up under detonation, exposed to high RPM tests, put in severe driving tests, tested with perfect oil and less than perfect oil. Everything was known and proven before GM accepted the design.

Ford insisted on a 300 hour wide open throttle test on new piston designs! That was over 12 days wide open throttle with the engine at max HP RPM on the dyno, if max hp was at 5600 RPM it would run there wide open throttle for over 12 days to meet the 300 hour test. There were about 8 dynomometer's in the bearing lab, 26 dynomometers in the piston ring lab, more in the piston lab, many more at the gasket lab These demanding tests were used to test many parts, everything from spark plugs, water pumps, injection systems, gaskets, bearings, rings, pistons. Everything had to work to run the engine under heavy loads for extreme testing.
I remember the engineers even introducing nitros to engines to determine failure points if an engine did not fail in normal testing.

I understand computers have taken over much of the actual testing and when done right all is still well. GM dropped the ball with these 6.2L engines, to continue building engines with these bearing problems over a few years is absolute negligence. They ignored the problem hoping it would only affect a smaller number of engines. All parts we supplied had to have identifiers stamped on them. You could pick up a used part and know what plant built it, what day, month and year it was built and what shift built the part that day. If there were problems you could trace it back and determine what went wrong on that specific day. In manufacturing parts were checked multiple times before shipping, visual inspections and electronic inspections were done. Core samples were taken to verify the metallurgy on schedule during production. The ball was dropped at GM or standards were relaxed causing this issue.

The engineering department at GM knew the cause and made it known to corporate GM management long before the public heard anything. GM gambled most of the engines would get out of warranty and lost. Now they are trying to present a positive spin to keep customers. OK, I feel better after sharing what little I know about engine parts supply and manufacture, keep in mind my information is going obsolete since I have not been involved at all since 2019. I would still trust the replacement engines. No way would they not fix the actual issue before shipping more engines. ( they might use up the existing inventory first but newly produced engines will be good ). We have not read of any supplier being blamed (yet) which says it was not the bearings fault they are failing.
Thank you for the indepth explanation. I did engine development work for many years and can confirm that the dyno tests are an absolute necessity to test for all things engine related. One company I worked for did tons of development for the big 3 (AVL Powetrain), off brands, as well as large diesels. They actually were part of the failure analysis for the first 3.0L diesels and had every dyno cell hot testing every new engine produced to try and figure out when/where the oil leak would come from - GM eventually figured it out and made the changes.

I also witnessed the accelerated endurance test for the pentastar V6 which is a rough test. Virgin engine, no more than 1 minute of idle time to check dyno/data acquisition equipment, and then a WOT run for 3 minutes under full load. If the engine survived, then Chrysler could extrapolate what kind of degradation could be expected........most of the early ones had spectacular failures but they eventually passed the test.

Long story short, this type of testing and data acquisition CAN'T be replaced by computer analysis. GM cut costs and hoped to be free of the casualties, much to new owners' dismay. I hope this serves as a correction to that mode of thinking, and maybe higher quality will make a comeback.

Until then, my trusty 2008 and 2017 are gonna fit the bill and hopefully keep chugging along.
 

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