Front wheels toe in under power... a lot!

[nosole]

I just put a leveling kit on my ‘04 4wd Suburban 1500 (torsion keys in the front, spring spacers in the back, new extended shocks all around, and wheel spacers all around for my eventual new wheels and 33s). When I’m on the throttle, my front wheels toe in a lot under power. I can stick my head out the window, step on the gas, and literally watch the wheel toe in 3 inches.

First, what I will say is that I understand the dynamics of suspension being that when you step on the throttle and the front end lifts up and the suspension droops, there are two things happening: the wheels will experience negative camber and they will toe in. The opposite being true of compression: positive camber and toe out. These effects are compounded by any lift, wheel spacers, larger wheels, etc, running on OE suspension.

While I do think the lift is exacerbating this problem, I also believe the problem likely existed before, and it’s just now become very obvious due to the added height. I noticed increased wear in the front tires, but never considered why until I started wrenching on the suspension now. How much of a problem it is, is not surprisingly linked to how much height I put in or take out. Fresh after installing the new keys and new shocks, the height was way past intended at +4.5 inches which made the truck almost undriveable. (I know how crazy stupid that height is, so let’s not focus on that. I only offer it as point of reference.) But even when I adjusted it to a pretty modest +2 inches (which is basically level), if I’m going uphill and step on it, the wheels toe in, fight for direction, and the steering skips.

It just seems crazy to me that any leveling kit at such a modest setting would experience any significant difference, let alone such a drastically noticeable one such as this.

I currently have it at +3 inches (my desired height) and I’ve toed the wheels out a lil bit to compensate so I can drive to work. It feels fine if I’m easy on it, but I know it’s gonna chew through the tires, so I don’t want to mount my fresh wheels and 33s until I can resolve this issue. I know those will add to the problem, and there’s no point in destroying perfectly good tires.

 

[HiHoeSilver]

I just put a leveling kit on my ‘04 4wd Suburban 1500 (torsion keys in the front, spring spacers in the back, new extended shocks all around, and wheel spacers all around for my eventual new wheels and 33s). When I’m on the throttle, my front wheels toe in a lot under power. I can stick my head out the window, step on the gas, and literally watch the wheel toe in 3 inches.

First, what I will say is that I understand the dynamics of suspension being that when you step on the throttle and the front end lifts up and the suspension droops, there are two things happening: the wheels will experience negative camber and they will toe in. The opposite being true of compression: positive camber and toe out. These effects are compounded by any lift, wheel spacers, larger wheels, etc, running on OE suspension.

While I do think the lift is exacerbating this problem, I also believe the problem likely existed before, and it’s just now become very obvious due to the added height. I noticed increased wear in the front tires, but never considered why until I started wrenching on the suspension now. How much of a problem it is, is not surprisingly linked to how much height I put in or take out. Fresh after installing the new keys and new shocks, the height was way past intended at +4.5 inches which made the truck almost undriveable. (I know how crazy stupid that height is, so let’s not focus on that. I only offer it as point of reference.) But even when I adjusted it to a pretty modest +2 inches (which is basically level), if I’m going uphill and step on it, the wheels toe in, fight for direction, and the steering skips.

It just seems crazy to me that any leveling kit at such a modest setting would experience any significant difference, let alone such a drastically noticeable one such as this.

I currently have it at +3 inches (my desired height) and I’ve toed the wheels out a lil bit to compensate so I can drive to work. It feels fine if I’m easy on it, but I know it’s gonna chew through the tires, so I don’t want to mount my fresh wheels and 33s until I can resolve this issue. I know those will add to the problem, and there’s no point in destroying perfectly good tires.

What kind of shocks did you put on it? Do you know which springs are in the back?

 

[swathdiver]

I just put a leveling kit on my ‘04 4wd Suburban 1500 (torsion keys in the front, spring spacers in the back, new extended shocks all around, and wheel spacers all around for my eventual new wheels and 33s). When I’m on the throttle, my front wheels toe in a lot under power. I can stick my head out the window, step on the gas, and literally watch the wheel toe in 3 inches.

First, what I will say is that I understand the dynamics of suspension being that when you step on the throttle and the front end lifts up and the suspension droops, there are two things happening: the wheels will experience negative camber and they will toe in. The opposite being true of compression: positive camber and toe out. These effects are compounded by any lift, wheel spacers, larger wheels, etc, running on OE suspension.

While I do think the lift is exacerbating this problem, I also believe the problem likely existed before, and it’s just now become very obvious due to the added height. I noticed increased wear in the front tires, but never considered why until I started wrenching on the suspension now. How much of a problem it is, is not surprisingly linked to how much height I put in or take out. Fresh after installing the new keys and new shocks, the height was way past intended at +4.5 inches which made the truck almost undriveable. (I know how crazy stupid that height is, so let’s not focus on that. I only offer it as point of reference.) But even when I adjusted it to a pretty modest +2 inches (which is basically level), if I’m going uphill and step on it, the wheels toe in, fight for direction, and the steering skips.

It just seems crazy to me that any leveling kit at such a modest setting would experience any significant difference, let alone such a drastically noticeable one such as this.

I currently have it at +3 inches (my desired height) and I’ve toed the wheels out a lil bit to compensate so I can drive to work. It feels fine if I’m easy on it, but I know it’s gonna chew through the tires, so I don’t want to mount my fresh wheels and 33s until I can resolve this issue. I know those will add to the problem, and there’s no point in destroying perfectly good tires.

Look into tie rod sleeves or those massive ones that LMC Truck sells.

Truck Tech TV show built a custom Duramax pickup and even with the LMC tie rods, the tires moved with 4WD launches, but it stays together.

 

[nosole]

What kind of shocks did you put on it? Do you know which springs are in the back?

Pro Comp ES9000 shocks. OE springs with spacers in the back. But that’s less relevant because it was doing this when I had only installed the front before I even touched the rear.

The shocks feel good. Definitely an improvement over my tired OE shocks. Also, no sagging whatsoever in the rear.

 

[SnowDrifter]

A little toe in, especially under power is normal-ish (more on that later). Especially if you're running spacers. It moves the centerline of the tire away from the axis of steering. In other words, the tire applies force off-axis to steering and will cause it to want to toe in. The opposite is true under braking. Imagine holding your arm away from your body and someone pushes/pulls it.

Now a little bit is between normal and to be expected. Everything is a spring, and the bow shape of the center link certainly doesn't lend itself to a ton of rigidity in this regard. You'll find some of the high power guys running upgraded tie rods / center link so it can handle the compressive stresses. The spacers will put more stress on the system in this regard, sure, but 3" is just outright absurd.



Sooooo I have a couple thoughts here

1. Drag link installed upside down / flipped

2. Loose steering

3. Angular stresses from the lift are boinking stuff out (perhaps look into lift spindles or a set of drop brackets for the steering and offset control arm)



Can you replicate the toe in issue by jacking up the front? Have you had your vehicle aligned since performing the work? If so, would you post the measurements?

 

[nosole]

A little toe in, especially under power is normal-ish (more on that later). Especially if you're running spacers. It moves the centerline of the tire away from the axis of steering. In other words, the tire applies force off-axis to steering and will cause it to want to toe in. The opposite is true under braking. Imagine holding your arm away from your body and someone pushes/pulls it.

Had to think about that for a moment, but yeah, that makes sense in understanding the forces at work.

Now a little bit is between normal and to be expected. Everything is a spring, and the bow shape of the center link certainly doesn't lend itself to a ton of rigidity in this regard. You'll find some of the high power guys running upgraded tie rods / center link so it can handle the compressive stresses. The spacers will put more stress on the system in this regard, sure, but 3" is just outright absurd.

Sorry, I should clarify. The lift is currently at 3”, not the spacers. The wheel spacers are 2”, which I calculated specifically to maintain adequate backspacing for the new wider wheels and tires to safely clear all the steering/suspension components.

Sooooo I have a couple thoughts here

1. Drag link installed upside down / flipped

2. Loose steering

3. Angular stresses from the lift are boinking stuff out (perhaps look into lift spindles or a set of drop brackets for the steering and offset control arm)

1. Well, the drag link on my Sub connects straight into the center link, as opposed to the tie rod end, which feeds the stud through the hole in the knuckle. So I’m not sure how it could be upside down since it’s effectively directionless. However, the tie rod end does mount stud pointing down with the nut on the bottom of the knuckle.

2. Loose steering, maybe. While steering in this boat isn’t exactly sports car level, or even rack and pinion, I don’t see or feel much play, if any.

3. Yeah, I’m sure the lift is exacerbating the problem. I’d like to avoid additional aftermarket components/brackets to compensate if I can. Trying to keep cost down, but obviously, if I have to, I will.

Can you replicate the toe in issue by jacking up the front? Have you had your vehicle aligned since performing the work? If so, would you post the measurements?

I have not had it aligned yet. I didn’t want to pay for that until I figured out if there was a bigger issue at work here. That said, I’ll be doing my own alignment at home to get things mostly there to see if that helps correct any of the issue. I know for sure the camber needs adjustment.

Thanks for the insight, Snow. Always appreciate your input

 

[SnowDrifter]

Whoops. Had myself a slip of the fingers there. In my upside down / flipped comment, that should read center link. That piece is orientation sensitive due to the droops and it's rather easy to put it on either sides-flipped or upside down

 

[nosole]

Whoops. Had myself a slip of the fingers there. In my upside down / flipped comment, that should read center link. That piece is orientation sensitive due to the droops and it's rather easy to put it on either sides-flipped or upside down

Got it. Well, to the best of my knowledge, the steering, and specifically the center link has never been worked on, and I’ve never touched it. So unless the factory flipped it, it should be on as intended. While I’m technically the 3rd owner, the truck has been in my family since day one. My dad and older brother, who were the previous owners, never had any major incident with it (i.e. accidents, recalls, mechanical failures). Just regular scheduled maintenance and low level stuff.

 

[91RS]

If you lifted 3" by just cranking up on the torsion bars (that is essentially what torsion keys are doing) those ball joints angles are now WAY out of geometry. You need a proper lift with a taller knuckle, control arms, or something to get those ball joint angles back in check.

 

[nosole]

If you lifted 3" by just cranking up on the torsion bars (that is essentially what torsion keys are doing) those ball joints angles are now WAY out of geometry. You need a proper lift with a taller knuckle, control arms, or something to get those ball joint angles back in check.

I’m sorry, I don’t mean to be rude, but this comment is not helpful. I’m aware of what I did, I spent time researching and weighing pros and cons, and I did it because I don’t have an extra $3k-$5k to spend on a comprehensive lift. I’m aware of the tradeoffs. Trust me, I would looove to build a lift the right way, with all the right parts, but I make do with what I’ve got. Please don’t think me simple minded or ignorant just because I don’t have money to burn. While I’m not a professional, I’ve patiently learned a great deal and gained a deep respect for cars by working on them myself instead paying others solve my problems for me.

 

[91RS]

Alright, then you'll be dealing with this concern for a while.

 

[OR VietVet]

I’m sorry, I don’t mean to be rude, but this comment is not helpful. I’m aware of what I did, I spent time researching and weighing pros and cons, and I did it because I don’t have an extra $3k-$5k to spend on a comprehensive lift. I’m aware of the tradeoffs. Trust me, I would looove to build a lift the right way, with all the right parts, but I make do with what I’ve got. Please don’t think me simple minded or ignorant just because I don’t have money to burn. While I’m not a professional, I’ve patiently learned a great deal and gained a deep respect for cars by working on them myself instead paying others solve my problems for me.

Pointing out an answer to your question and what would remedy the concern is "helpful" IMO. No one here knows what research you put in to it or your tech capacity. Being defensive will never get you help with "asked for answers" to your questions. That is a lonely path.

 

[nosole]

Alright. Let’s all relax. It was stupid of me to even engage that way regardless of how I might feel. I know full well that being at all adversarial online never ends well and surely doesn’t advance the subject toward a productive solution. So, all good... water under the bridge.

I’m gonna continue looking into the suggested options and will come back with other questions or updates.

For now, I’ve adjusted the camber from positive to neutral, and left a little toe out. It drives fine for normal conditions, though accelerating from a stop while heading up hill still being the worst offender. I’m going to take probly another inch of height out of the front, pending any other longer term solution.

 

[OR VietVet]

Are you planning on having it aligned and if so could you post the before and after readout of the specs?

 

[nosole]

Are you planning on having it aligned and if so could you post the before and after readout of the specs?

Yes. I have to do some trimming to accommodate the new wheels/tires. Once they’re on, I’m taking it in. Hopefully that’ll happen next week. My adjustments are only temporary to hold me over til then.

 

[OR VietVet]

Great. If I see the printout then I can see if the right amount of caster lead on the right is there and if the shop is a "set the toe and go" shop.

 

[nosole]

Yeah. I’m going to mention it specifically when I take it in. I don’t think it’ll be an issue though. The place I use is very well respected in the community and has always done good work.

On that subject, do you have specs handy that I might provide to them?

 

[SnowDrifter]

Why would you need to provide them with specs as a customer? They have their own databases

Also: Not sure getting defensive here is appropriate. To be blunt, there's no magic bullet that will correct for boinked suspension geometry. I get cash flow can be tight, but the flipside to that is just because that's the case doesn't mean it's an excuse to (politely) half-ass a job. Either waiting / saving until funds are available, or just opting not to do a given mod is always an option.

 

[nosole]

Well, you’re completely right, I shouldn’t have to. It’s more that I have very little disposable time so I prefer to go into something having the answer so I can be clear about my expectations up front. That leaves less open to interpretation and hedges against the “meh, good enough” sentiment of the “toe and go” vendor. I gain no satisfaction in being right if it wastes time and energy that I could’ve saved by being thoughtful ahead of time.

And yes, I totally agree. Being defensive doesn’t help. Don’t bite the hand that feeds! I honestly thought that leveling the truck was an adequate and relatively safe compromise because I know if I actually do lift this or any other truck, I will want to spend the dough to make it right, and that’s just not in the cards right now. C’est la vie. Failures are better educators than successes if you ask me. Just trying to make the best of a less than ideal situation.

FWIW, 2” in the front seems to be a relatively happy place. I know I’ll pay for it in tire wear, worn ball joints, CVS, etc in the long run, but at least for now it’s Ok.

 

[Rd05lly]

So CV angles are rolling the center link when you are under power you have a few options. But first you need to check pitman arm and idle arm. Now thanks to Duramax guys sled pulling and boosted launching there are a few ways to fix