Engine shuts off while driving - SOLVED

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sasso

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Tried adding additional ground, doing the relearn (although it failed) but now seems like the symptoms are getting worse. Now it will die at idle, no ac no steering input no brake input. Once it warms up. Idle starts hunting and it eventually drops too low and dies. As always will not start back up.

The question is what can cause a normal cold start and fail once it warms up.

Once we figure that out, I think it can be solved. Gonna try for another couple of days if not will send it to a dealership in another state. Hopefully they are better although Google reviews are very similar.
 

jfoj

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While the CASE relearn is a wise idea, I would have hoped who ever changed the crank sensor would have done this, I doubt it will solve your problem.

From research is appears the ESP has a 60 Amp fuse and the electric steering can use a lot of current. Using the typical 75% loading for fused circuits, this would mean the electric steering could possibly draw as much as 45+ amps at times. If there was something wrong with the electrical steering system, it is possible there could be a quick high Amp load that would not blow the fuse but could possible spike the electrical system?

I would recommend just pulling the power steering fuse and trying to recreate the engine stalling. Seems it is somewhat repeatable at this point. A quick and simple way to at least possibly have a direct coorelation to the steering that is electrically and not mechanical.

Good luck.
 

jfoj

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My reply was while you had just replied, so what I suggest may not be useful at this point.

You may want to have the dealer check for fuel contamination at this point to just rule it out as a factor. You clearly have not been able to use the fuel up that you currently have in the fuel tank.

I will think on this for a bit and see if I have any other suggestions based on your latest reply.
 
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sasso

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i doubt there is any fuel contamination, as i am in a country that has very clean fuel. So garage is no suspecting the high pressure fuel pump. When it starts up next, they are gonna run live data and check voltage, high prssure fuel and low pressure, as well as rpm and engine power.

I hope this gets resolved.

Now i need to also know how to dance around the dealerships to avoid me losing my warranty
 

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i doubt there is any fuel contamination, as i am in a country that has very clean fuel. So garage is no suspecting the high pressure fuel pump. When it starts up next, they are gonna run live data and check voltage, high prssure fuel and low pressure, as well as rpm and engine power.

I hope this gets resolved.

Now i need to also know how to dance around the dealerships to avoid me losing my warranty
just don't tell them you did anything to it, do not open your mouth and insert foot.
if you added anything and they say it "may be because" of ***, remove *** and take it back.
dealers like to only deal with oem equipment, adding anything makes them "check a box" when reporting to gm and then gm comes back and says "this is the problem"
that is how it goes, when diagnosing they follow a exact set of parameters. throwing something else in there causes a problem for them.
nothing added, no box checked. easy as that.
they are required to follow a "diagnostic tree" do not add any limbs
 

jfoj

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As for fuel contamination, this is a wide range of possibilities. Not sure what country you live in, but a lot of things can happen. First is too much Ethanol, this can be common where the fuel depot screws up and adds too much Ethanol. Pretty easy check with a tester the dealer should have. Water in fuel, underground tanks always have water in them, often it needs to be pumped out manually. If you fuel up shortly after a fuel dump at the station, the water can be stirred up.

Anyway, it is a wise idea based on some of what is going on to verify fuel quality.

A $10 smart phone app with a $20-$40 OBDII interface can monitor a lot sensor data. I would need to verify 100% if the Fuel Pressures are part of the standard OBDII data set as I have about 5 different tools I use and I do not recall exactly the what the standard OBD tool can monitor. I do know that things like High and Low fuel pressure, RPM, Timing, Voltage, MAF reading and many other parameters, this can all be displayed and at a minimum graphed on some of the mid level tools without a problem.

Given you do not sound like you have good dealer options, it would be wise for you to invest in an App and Interface even if they get you sorted for now. You may also want to invest some money in a mid level tool that would help you out. I have no problem dropping $500-750 as this will probably save this much with 1 repair. I also have a number of different cars within the family, so I need different model coverage. Where dealer labor rates are $125-$175 per hour, you can see how quickly a tool will pay for itself.

One thing I was surprised of when watching my the low fuel pressure yesterday while driving my 2024 was how much the Low Pressure was moving around. I figured with the lift pump and the high pressure pump, the low pressure lift pump would be a pretty stable pressure, but was not the case. I will confirm across a few other like vehicles just for reference. The high side common rail pressure typically operated between 750-2500 PSI as I recall.
 

blanchard7684

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Tried adding additional ground, doing the relearn (although it failed) but now seems like the symptoms are getting worse. Now it will die at idle, no ac no steering input no brake input. Once it warms up. Idle starts hunting and it eventually drops too low and dies. As always will not start back up.

The question is what can cause a normal cold start and fail once it warms up.

Once we figure that out, I think it can be solved. Gonna try for another couple of days if not will send it to a dealership in another state. Hopefully they are better although Google reviews are very similar.
One big thing here is that the ecm is going between open loop and closed loop.

If you are getting the P0016 cam/crank correlation code then the issue may be more related to variable valve timing or the reluctor wheel on crank or cam. I've seen P0016 along with a host of other cam timing codes when a component in the oil control fails on VVT systems.

However...

In my experience P0016 by itself is usually a mechanical issue that is keeping the cam and crank position out of sync. So this could even be a timing gear or timing chain issue. Although I'd say a 2023 is pretty early for this wear…

Some scan tools have an oscilloscope function that can test this. I'm certain the dealer has this capability.

I also wouldn't rule out the HPFP either. There are a host of failure modes that could be temperature dependent. The most obvious of which is pump efficiency from excess clearances on the internal piston.

The strangest P0016 issue I ever saw or was involved with...a guy had a low mileage Tundra 5.7 in the middle east. Something got lost in translation during an oil change and they put 75 viscosity grade oil. The owner drives it and on a heavy acceleration the engine dies and makes noise. They find out that some of the roller followers (overhead cam version of rocker arms) were spit out. This is typical of OHC engines that use roller followers.

So he gets the followers put back on. The thing never runs right. It runs ok when cold or at wide open throttle. Anywhere in between it is choppy, idle feels weird, etc.

Turns out he didn't see the major damage on the cam shaft reluctor wheel that is cast into the camshaft from the follower issue. The exhaust cams were not giving a proper signal on position and code 0016 was set everytime he drove it and it wasn't in open loop.
 
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sasso

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So, checked literally everything. Nothing is out of the ordinary. returned everything to OEM and off it goes to the dealership.

I will update once i know more.

Once again, thank you everyone. I appreciate it greatly
 

jfoj

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The last time I had a similar problem was with an older Lexus where it would always cold start but run almost exactly 20 minutes and die. Then no start until it sat overnight.

Pulled the ECM, opened it up and inspected it closely and found a bad solder joint inside that would heat up and then the connection would be intrupted. Reworked the solder joint and problem solved.

I would be surprised on newer technology this type of problem occuring. Could be a flaky component that is faulty once warmed up.

But the entire issue about turning the steering and causing the engine to quit would likely rule out a fault ECM component, but who knows for sure.

I hope the dealer can make some progress.

What country are you located in?
 

viven44

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Pulled the ECM, opened it up and inspected it closely and found a bad solder joint inside that would heat up and then the connection would be intrupted. Reworked the solder joint and problem solved.

I would be surprised on newer technology this type of problem occuring. Could be a flaky component that is faulty once warmed up.
As a “semiconductor packaging”engg, I deal with manufacturing, quality and reliability of consumer and automotive grade chips/packages. OEs like Bosch and Conti use the chips/packages from a chip company (like the ones I’ve worked for) and create the ECMs/modules. What you described is a failure in the solder joint the OE’s manufacturing… unfortunately what is within the chips themselves is an issue as well (or most likely will be in the future)

Brace for impact… the focus since the 09 recession has been cost cutting. In past years when cost wasn’t top priority, and we didn’t have issues using lead based solders as well, our qualification criteria would be such that in the field you could expect 20+ years.

Since about 2015 or so I’ve seen consistent push for “cost leadership” and meeting 10 year qualification requirement is enough now. On any grade 0 automotive qualified semiconductor part anything over 10 years is on borrowed time…. And the modules are increasingly becoming more complex and proprietary GM or Ford or other automakers design (no aftermarket likely anymore).

That is why I probably won’t own anything newer for my own use….
 
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jfoj

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@viven44

I have been dealing with electronic failures for far too many years. Often many are solder joint related, long before the RoHS leadless or low lead solder all the way into the more modern RoHS solder. Its like the newer DI engines with DFM, we are actually going backwards trying to keep all of this junk working.

In my experience while there are solder joint problems with lead based solder, they were not at bad as what I have seen with the low lead/leadless solder. The low lead/leadless solder is too hard, does not expand and contract or flex like the lead based solder. It tends to crack/frature far too easily.

I have dealt with everything from ball grid array chips unsoldering themselves or breaking joints to having to service boards with the higher temp leadless solders that are a PITA to replace components on.

I used to say many years ago, if electronic circuits and computer modules could survive in the automotive world, they could clearly survive in the consumer electronic world if they had decent quality control and workmanship.

What I deal with a lot these days are the stupid mini/micro relays rated at 10-20 Amps that are no larger than a sugar cube that fail typically in 5-7 years depending on the applications. I have repaired/replaced so many boards with these stupid relays in everything from door lock modules, to refridgerators, humidifiers and many other products.

Have spend too much time with freeze spray and hair dryers or heat guns looking for components with thermal faults. Dealt with circuit boards with many different size conductors and headers where either wave solder or IR solder would not heat the mass of the larger diameter leads enough to get a proper solder joint, ending in cold solder joints on headers, larger relays pins and compenent with larger wire guages.

Some of the other fun I have dealt with is finding and repair circuit boards in the automotive industry that did not have conformal coating on the circuit boards where humidity caused the solder or lead to oxidize and form the white crystaline oxide that is conductive that would cause shorts on close terminals or surface mount parts.

Even lived thru the counterfiet capacitor problem or capacitor plague where I have had to repair countless flat screen TV's, computer monitors, computer boards and switching power supplies.

I get the cost cutting, but I also have seen counterfiet components, overly optimistic specs, and young engineers that do not have much experience missing out on safety margins. The other thing I find a lot is the male/female pins or contacts are either too small to handle the current, the female terminals get loose over time due to heating/cooling and vibration, or the really common problem is many aftermarket parts with male pins/terminals often use thinner gauge metal than OE to save a buck and the female terminals in the connectors will not properly grab the male pins/terminals causing intermittent problems, especially under the hood with wide temperature changes.

It is amazing things work as well as they do from a hardware standpoint, but the software and firmware is a far bigger issue these days!!!

One thing I need to notify GM about is the "Check Back Seat" child warning and how it more often than not does not function when I shut the truck off. Often due to my phone connected and streaming audio from an App or when I am pulling data from the OBDII port. While I will likely never need a reminder, I figured why not, too many sad stories of people not checking in the back of the car before they leave and lock it up.

The real scary part is these cars and too many things are almost now too complicated to repair these days. Less from the mechanical side but more from the electrical/electronic/software/firmware side. Unfortunately these vehicles are really too expensive to be disposable, but getting intermittent problems fixed are really difficult.

I wanted to get a newer vehicle before the stupid mandatory drunk driving detection technology is implemented where there is either some breath detector in the cabin or some way to determine alchohol in your system from your hands on the steering wheel! Wonder how often this will malfunction and leave someone stranded?

As the world burns.

Anyway I hope the poster with the random shut off probem finds a solution sooner than later. So many problems are often questionable connections or even battery related these days, especially with the Dynamic Charging Systems in these vehicles. I was monitoring the charging Voltage in my truck this week on a 5 hour trip in both directions and noticed it was in the 12.5-12.7 range for a long period. Luckily I know how the alternator is turned off on these platforms so I was not worried, but I was kind of surprised for how long the alternator was turned off while in the car for almost 5 hours.
 

viven44

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Yep... Seeing and troubleshoot failures daily in consumer and automotive chip packages ranging from temp cycle induced fatigue cracking, to temp/humidity/bias induced corrosion..... Seen one too many perils in the Man (or person to be politically correct) or Machine, or Method to trust electronics anymore... :eek:

Yes I do wish the original poster luck getting this resolved with the other dealer.
 

blanchard7684

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Well, they are replacing the engine. Something to do with crankshaft and metal flakes in the oil. Hopefully this fixes the issue. Gotta wait a month tho
Yikes . Probably the first 5.3 going down hard we’ve seen in a good while. and the code p0016 is implicated in the 6.2 recall recently posted.


Thanks for the update.
 

jfoj

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Interesting, I think this is one of the first situations that I've read about with the P0016 code proceeding a catastrophic engine failure. Sorry for your problems but at least it seems that someone's finally got to the bottom of the problem. I'm assuming that turning the power steering loaded the alternator up and put enough load on the engine that somehow it was causing the engine to die.

I guess I need to start interrogating ODB port on my car on a regular basis looking for a pending P0016 code?
 
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sasso

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Ok so

Final update.

Got my car back yesterday and finally had the chance to speak to the advisor properly.

Failed crankshaft bearing.

Basically once the bearing would heat up it would seize and stall the engine.

Oil was full of metal flakes

Once it would cool down it would break free and run until it’s at operating temps.

Changed engine assembly and it’s back to running. Hopefully it’s just a one off manufacturing defect as they said they haven’t seen it in the 5.3s before.
Anyway glad it is sorted.

Thank you everyone who followed And chimed in with your knowledge And advice.

Appreciate you all
 

jfoj

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@sasso

How many miles were on your vehicle when this first started and when the engine was finally replaced?

Do you typically drive mostly in town? I would guess if you drove a much on the highway the engine may have actually seized and it would have been easier for the dealer to determine what was wrong.

This is the exact same problem as the 6.2l is having, however, due to engine loading the 6.2l almost always hard seize, but there are a few cases of the 6.2l "stalling" like yours and restarting once the engine cools down but the 6.2l usually it will stall 1 or 2 times before the engine actually seizes. The 6.2l's tend fail more catastrophically.

If you are in the US, you may want to fill out a NHTSA complaint, it may help others in the future.

NHTSA Complaint Form
 
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sasso

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@sasso

How many miles were on your vehicle when this first started and when the engine was finally replaced?

Do you typically drive mostly in town? I would guess if you drove a much on the highway the engine may have actually seized and it would have been easier for the dealer to determine what was wrong.

This is the exact same problem as the 6.2l is having, however, due to engine loading the 6.2l almost always hard seize, but there are a few cases of the 6.2l "stalling" like yours and restarting once the engine cools down but the 6.2l usually it will stall 1 or 2 times before the engine actually seizes. The 6.2l's tend fail more catastrophically.

If you are in the US, you may want to fill out a NHTSA complaint, it may help others in the future.

NHTSA Complaint Form
No i do not do much highway driving, mostly 15-20 mins on the highway a day. when the fault first occured was after i had driven about 2.5 hours of highway driving.

i have done about 36k kms when it happened and the engine was replaced not long after. maybe 100kms.

Unfortunately i am not in the US
 

jfoj

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@sasso,

Thanks for the response.

The 2.5 hours on the highway make sense when the engine bearings would have tightened up.

The shorter trips probably did not cause the bearings to heat up as much to be a problem.

You were clearly borderline for the engine actually seizing while you were on a longer highway run.

Can you clarify "i have done about 36k kms when it happened and the engine was replaced not long after. maybe 100kms."

Did the problem start to occur at 36k kilometers (22369 miles)?

Are you saying you had the problem on and off and finally had the engine replaced at 100k kms (62137 miles)?

Where are you located? Just trying to get an idea of the climate you are dealing with on a regular basis.
 

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