2007 Brake Conversion on 2002 Tahoe - Brakes don't work???

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Doubleclutch

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Installed the 2007 rotors and calipers on my 2002 Tahoe as has been described in many threads. Everything bolted right up, no problems. Bled the calipers over and over and over... Topped off the fluid, etc. The brakes I removed were fine, just not what I needed with the 20" wheels.

The pedal is very squishy and the brakes don't work unless you pump them repeatedly.

Has anyone else experienced this? Did I miss something? Some help would be greatly appreciated, or I'm going to have to put it back in order to get a car back on the road.

Thanks
 

ScottyBoy

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Sounds like you got air into the ABS module. Were the calipers removed for quite some time? Or did you unbolt the old caliper and connect the new one within a minute or so? If you left the hose disconnected for a while, it's VERY likely that you got too much air into the lines. While I personally have not had this issue, I have heard of this happening to people and they ultimately ended up having to get someone with a pressurized brake bleeder to bleed the brakes for them. Or else a dealership with a Tech-2 diagnostic tool, the tech-2 can be used to trigger the ABS module to rapidly pulse and bleed the air out.
Also, if you did not bleed all 4 wheels, I would try that first before doing anything else.
 
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Doubleclutch

Doubleclutch

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I would say the first caliper I swapped in about 10 minutes, the second caliper was much faster, maybe 2 minutes. Being a squishy pedal, what you say makes perfect sense.

I will bleed all 4 at once. I wonder if Autozone or someone rents a pressurized brake bleeder?
 

Rocket Man

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You have to bleed all 4, starting with the passenger rear, then driver rear, passenger front, then driver front. Buy a gallon of fluid. I tried the vacuum bleeders but they sucked air at the bleeder valves and that was a waste of time and fluid. Best is use a helper but I did mine myself by putting the bleeder tube in a container with brake fluid so it couldn't draw air back in. You need to be able to see the hose though so you know when there's no more bubbles.
 
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Doubleclutch

Doubleclutch

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Thanks Scotty and Rocket! I've bled these things until the cows came home... same issue.

I'll take it in for the fancy pressurized bleeding this week.
 

afpj

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There's another thread on here somewhere that describes using the ABS by pressing the brake pedal part way during the bleed process and then turning on the ignition without turning the engine over. This activates the ABS module for a little bit to get the air out. The other method I recall is going out and driving the crap out of it and slamming on the brakes multiple times to force air out of the ABS system. That is a brief synopsis of what I recall.
Also, don't push the brake pedal all the way down during the bleed process...you end up bottoming out the master and killing the seal, requiring a new master cylinder.
 

Windwalker

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Take it somewhere you can drive get up to about 35-40 and slam on the brakes and get the abs to kick on. Do this about 2 or 3 times then go bleed them one more time. Not recommending this but I done it to mine when I did the swap and it worked
 

Windwalker

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There's another thread on here somewhere that describes using the ABS by pressing the brake pedal part way during the bleed process and then turning on the ignition without turning the engine over. This activates the ABS module for a little bit to get the air out. The other method I recall is going out and driving the crap out of it and slamming on the brakes multiple times to force air out of the ABS system. That is a brief synopsis of what I recall.
Also, don't push the brake pedal all the way down during the bleed process...you end up bottoming out the master and killing the seal, requiring a new master cylinder.
What this person said!!
 
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Doubleclutch

Doubleclutch

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Here's where I am presently:
Before going out, I bled each caliper using the pedal and ABS pump as previously described.

Went out, slammed the brakes. ABS engaged on the rear. Lost some pedal. Returned

Bled again with the pedal/ABS method.

Went out again. Slammed the brakes. Had more pedal this time, ABS engages the rear, but I have to pump the brakes to get the front calipers interested. Slammed several times. Returned.

Bled again. Slammed again. Bled again. Slammed again. I am getting no air and the fluid is shooting several inches in the air, then I abruptly close the nipple. I've left rear tire skid marks all over the neighborhood. Scared the crap out of some runners...

Brakes are better, but same result: If the brakes aren't pumped a few times prior to stopping, the front calipers just don't want to be part of the system.

Is it possible that I have the wrong calipers (I used the part numbers in the forum)? Could I have damaged the master cylinder, or maybe it was in need of replacement anyway? I've worked on some stubborn issues but this one has really been frustrating.
 

HiHoeSilver

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Here's where I am presently:
Before going out, I bled each caliper using the pedal and ABS pump as previously described.

Went out, slammed the brakes. ABS engaged on the rear. Lost some pedal. Returned

Bled again with the pedal/ABS method.

Went out again. Slammed the brakes. Had more pedal this time, ABS engages the rear, but I have to pump the brakes to get the front calipers interested. Slammed several times. Returned.

Bled again. Slammed again. Bled again. Slammed again. I am getting no air and the fluid is shooting several inches in the air, then I abruptly close the nipple. I've left rear tire skid marks all over the neighborhood. Scared the crap out of some runners...

Brakes are better, but same result: If the brakes aren't pumped a few times prior to stopping, the front calipers just don't want to be part of the system.

Is it possible that I have the wrong calipers (I used the part numbers in the forum)? Could I have damaged the master cylinder, or maybe it was in need of replacement anyway? I've worked on some stubborn issues but this one has really been frustrating.

Seems frustrating for sure. Which part # did you use? Have you tried @iamdub 's key on method?

Highly interested because I'm gathering parts for the swap...
 
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Doubleclutch

Doubleclutch

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Calipers: 19176793 (r) 19176794 (l). Everything bolted right up, easy as could be.

Have not heard of the @iamdub method, but I'm all ears.
 

iamdub

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Thanks for finding that, Nate!

I'll just copy/paste that plus what I wrote on the first page of that thread:

"...the problem is likely the master cylinder. Of course, you wanna make sure the ABS module is bled. I've always bled as best as I could the traditional way, except ever so often I'd turn the key to "on" just as I started to push the pedal down. I'd pump a couple of times and repeat this a few times. I've never had a helper when I bled. I've always hung a plastic water bottle with a clear hose going through the cap all the way to the bottom of the bottle and the other end of the hose slipped over the bleeder. Anyway, I bleed them like this cuz the ABS solenoids are cycled during a test when you first turn the key on. If I feel it needs more or I'm just bored, I take the car to a grassy lot and hit the brakes to activate the ABS a few times, then bleed again. If you still have a soft pedal, change the master cylinder.

I just did a brake job on my '08. All the corners bled fine until I got to the last one (front left). The pedal suddenly felt odd during a stroke and would never get firm again. I started the bleeding process all over again and there was air again at the back calipers and the pedal just would not firm up. After some interwebz digging, I rushed to O'Reilly's for a new master cylinder (it was only $10 more than the remanufactured one and included a new reservoir). This fixed it. I couldn't believe that it was pure coincidence that the MC just so happened to have so many strokes left in it and they were used up during that bleeding process. This was kinda the case, but not exactly. Over time, the bore and piston seal(s) inside the MC wear just in the area where the piston has been cycling for the past 1xx,*** miles. When bleeding during a brake job, the piston is pushed much farther than it's normal travel and into the rarely- or never-touched area of the bore where it's tighter. The aged seal(s) on the piston catches in the smaller/tighter bore and gets torn or peeled out of place. Some mechanics place a block of wood behind the brake pedal to limit it's travel during the bleeding process.

A computer makes it easier and removes all doubt. But, I don't see how what I do isn't just as effective. Just as I begin to apply pedal pressure I turn the key. So, the fluid is already trying to push towards the calipers before the ABS solenoids are opened. As soon as the solenoids open, the fluid, air moisture, etc. is pushed out of the ABS module and further down the lines, followed by the fresh fluid coming in from the MC. When I flush a brake system, I do it mostly through the right rear at first. I let the bottle fill with the old brake fluid (which is darker) until the fluid coming into it begins to get lighter. By this point, there shouldn't be any bubbles. I then hang a second bottle on the left rear and bleed both rears simultaneously until they are only flowing the new fluid. Of course, while I'm pumping the pedal I'm doing the "key on trick" every few sets of pumps. This method has never failed me and I've gotten a firm and very responsive pedal every time. GMs are known for having softer pedals even when new. Replacing the flex lines with braided steel lines works wonders and running a hydrabooster will make it feel like you could stop on a dime while towing a camper."


So, Randy, when you were bleeding, did you push the brake pedal to the floor? If so, and you lost front brakes, then I'm betting you killed the master cylinder. If your further testing leads you to replacing it, be sure to thoroughly bench bleed it (it should come with fittings and hoses to do this) and leave you original one on place until you're ready to swap in the new one. You wanna have the lines disconnected for as little time as possible. When you go to bleed it, put a 2x4 under the pedal so you don't bottom it out. Also, I recommend getting a new one instead of a reman'ed unit, especially if the higher cost is as minimal as it was for my '08. This way you can at least avoid a botched reman job.

Oh- I don't know if it's possible to screw up on these brakes, but you do have the calipers on the correct sides, right? At least on other cars, I've heard of people having them swapped which put the bleeder screws on the bottom of the caliper, making it impossible to get the air out.
 
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Doubleclutch

Doubleclutch

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Oh- I don't know if it's possible to screw up on these brakes, but you do have the calipers on the correct sides, right? At least on other cars, I've heard of people having them swapped which put the bleeder screws on the bottom of the caliper, making it impossible to get the air out.

This! :doh2:

It hit me like a ton of bricks when I read the last sentence. I should know better, but got in a hurry. I rebled and I have pedal for days. I did pick up a new master cylinder, but I'm not sure if I need it. I may replace it next weekend anyway since I have 189,*** miles.

Thanks Dub!!!
 

Rocket Man

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Damn, I forgot about that possibility! There was another member here that did the same thing. @iamdub saves the day! Sometimes we forget the obvious. I'm sure glad you got it figured out.
 

iamdub

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Lol!

That last thought came to me and I had to edit my post for the 2nd or 3rd time to add it. I wasn't sure if it was on this forum where I read of that happening, but I know for sure I read of it on S10forum, where I "lived" prior to moving to TYF.

Replacing the MC is up to you. It's one of those things that you generally leave alone if it's not broken. If you would rather have the extra funds in your account, bring it back. If you would rather have the peace of mind of having a new MC, swap it. I will say that there's a chance that the lifespan of it has probably been shortened if you floored the pedal during all that bleeding.

Glad you got it fixed and I hope the NNBS brake upgrade was everything you had hoped for.
 

MrBalll

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Glad to hear you got it worked out. Sucks about all the bleeding and fluid replacement, but at least it's all better now.
 

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