Towing Heavy Transmission Temps

[Foggy]

Just some thoughts I had:

I've owned a few 40K to 50K # motorhomes with 11L & 12.7L diesel engines and Allison 6 speed autos. The rule to keep them from getting hot is "keep the rpm up. Don't lug em." I don't know if the same applies to gasoline engines.

For many yrs I've been doing used ATF analysis with some of my vehicles. My ATF samples I send to JG Lubricant Services because a President/owner, x GM fluid engineer Tom Johnson, is at ph 877-971-7799 ext#2 to answer question(s). I've talked to him several times. Give him a call. Nice man.

IIRC, Tom says your Dexron6 atf tempsaren't hurting a thing. Prolonged temp greater than 235 and the fluid starts to degrade.

If your worried about Dexron6 viscosity thinning out, you might consider running an Allison approved TES668 atf. They have a higher viscosity. Some Corvette folks that "track" their car do it.

You might consider ordering some kits too so you can see what is what.

https://www.jglubricantservices.com/docs/Technical Information Sheet.pdf

https://www.allisontransmission.com/parts-service/approved-fluids/on-highway-fluids

Thank you for that info... I've always experienced that lugging the engine results
in less mpg and more wear/ heat as well with gas engines. I used to tow this rig
with my 1994 C1500 ext cab.. It has more power than my 6.2 and a 4L80e trans.
Lugging it in 4th OD and rpm'ing it in 3rd gear. But using 3rd 1:1 on any incline
was the only way to go.
I'm using Liqui Moly ATF 1800 in my 6l80e. It's supposed to be a little bit
of an upgrade to Dex VI. So I'm not quite concerned about overheating the trans
fluid.. yet
Just found this whole situation odd that this situation exists at all

 

[j91z28d1]

There is a dedicated channel that is PE active or inactive that should show up...

I always thought the PE was like an accelerator pump, but watching one of these youtube tuning videos, apparently it is for cylinder cooling when you are heavy on throtte/load.

Or the HOT table for PE, which seems to be set at 87% throttle from factory. Perhaps you're over 87% in 5th, but under in 4th.



I hope so! (they are going into 5th gear...)

pe is performance enrichment mode. you're thinking of AE acceleration enrichment. that is like carb pump shot for wall wetting in a port or wet induction setup. there's also a DE for when you let off the throttle it cuts fuel for the wall fuel to evaporate. some good sae papers used to be available online for this.

in pe mode is when you need something other than close loop 14.7 target fuel. so makes sense there's a high temp activated settings too, like there's cat over temp math that will flood the cats with extra fuel to cool them down when the math temp says they are at risk of melting. like say a track day or I'd guess towing even, which is a bit weird because cats run hotter the richer the mixture, which is why long time is pe mode can melt cats since you're stock tune can be as rich as 11s a/f at wot. but I guess if you dump even more fuel in them, they cool back down again. most tuners turn cot off first thing.

the other thing I do wonder, having raised pe enable to above what it would active at stock and then towing heavy up a mountain in closed loop 14s at 30plus deg timing. that seems to be asking a lot? I have not idea the actual load in the engine but I'm picturing 3/4 throttle?

would giving up a little mpg to allow pe mode to get you down into the 12s a/f be better over all? any idea what a stock tune would run at that load point?

 

[Foggy]

pe is performance enrichment mode. you're thinking of AE acceleration enrichment. that is like carb pump shot for wall wetting in a port or wet induction setup. there's also a DE for when you let off the throttle it cuts fuel for the wall fuel to evaporate. some good sae papers used to be available online for this.

in pe mode is when you need something other than close loop 14.7 target fuel. so makes sense there's a high temp activated settings too, like there's cat over temp math that will flood the cats with extra fuel to cool them down when the math temp says they are at risk of melting. like say a track day or I'd guess towing even, which is a bit weird because cats run hotter the richer the mixture, which is why long time is pe mode can melt cats since you're stock tune can be as rich as 11s a/f at wot. but I guess if you dump even more fuel in them, they cool back down again. most tuners turn cot off first thing.

the other thing I do wonder, having raised pe enable to above what it would active at stock and then towing heavy up a mountain in closed loop 14s at 30plus deg timing. that seems to be asking a lot? I have not idea the actual load in the engine but I'm picturing 3/4 throttle?

would giving up a little mpg to allow pe mode to get you down into the 12s a/f be better over all? any idea what a stock tune would run at that load point?

My wideband shows the normal AF .. nothing spiking up or down.
Fuel trims are within -/+5.. so that's ok.. My load pid shows about
40% load in 4th gear and about 50% in 5th gear on the level...
Throttle position is around 50%.
I have turned off COT as I have aftermarket KOOKS headers and hi flow green cats
Trying to copy my spark airmass table from HPT.. but i'm too dumb to do it on here

 

[j91z28d1]

normal being 14.7 ish e10 changes that some but generally. would it be in pe mode running richer at that point normally? that was my curiosity, say 12.5/1?


load doesn't sound as high as I was thinking. for hptuners you'd probably have to screen capture and then save it as a jpeg to upload it here.

might be more telling if you can upload your stock read as a compare in hp, and see how different they are at the spot you'd be in on the map at that time. but you're right, the cam and free flowing exhaust changes it all some.

in my generally experience that's pretty limited, ls engine don't normally need as much timing advance as old small block, those needed all the timing they could take to make power. ls seemed more forgiving to conservative timing

 

[Foggy]

normal being 14.7 ish e10 changes that some but generally. would it be in pe mode running richer at that point normally? that was my curiosity, say 12.5/1?


load doesn't sound as high as I was thinking. for hptuners you'd probably have to screen capture and then save it as a jpeg to upload it here.

might be more telling if you can upload your stock read as a compare in hp, and see how different they are at the spot you'd be in on the map at that time. but you're right, the cam and free flowing exhaust changes it all some.

in my generally experience that's pretty limited, ls engine don't normally need as much timing advance as old small block, those needed all the timing they could take to make power. ls seemed more forgiving to conservative timing

Unfortunately my OE stock read is long gone.. in 2020...
Then when I removed the SC in favor of a vvt cam and mild head work
The new tuner I used told me they couldn't tune it because I had bad pistons
from the SC being on it (********)...
It just ended up being 1 bad coil pack .. I told them I had the heads off. All was perfect.
So then I just decided to learn to tune on my own...
It's been a journey to even get to this point... And 3 times I've paid for credits
for the same Yukon !
Anyway, I got rid of the virtual flex fuel BS and since it's all E10 with best
octane of 91 in my area.. I have set the AFR target to 14.30 ish to compensate.

 

[mikez71]

I have a 2012 yukon 6.2 stock file if you need. (two from hptuners repository) both identical.

 

[j91z28d1]

Unfortunately my OE stock read is long gone.. in 2020...
Then when I removed the SC in favor of a vvt cam and mild head work
The new tuner I used told me they couldn't tune it because I had bad pistons
from the SC being on it (********)...
It just ended up being 1 bad coil pack .. I told them I had the heads off. All was perfect.
So then I just decided to learn to tune on my own...
It's been a journey to even get to this point... And 3 times I've paid for credits
for the same Yukon !
Anyway, I got rid of the virtual flex fuel BS and since it's all E10 with best
octane of 91 in my area.. I have set the AFR target to 14.30 ish to compensate.

interesting. sounds like you got a handle on it pretty well really. it's just my curiosity as to if a stock tune would be in pe mode open loop targeting a richer a/f at that point. like you say, you're not in unsafe territory at all.

it would be cool to see what other guys that tow have for tunes either stock or what someone like black bear has setup. of they would be willing to share info with you.


but yes, these days it's my understanding you really never flash a new tune from another file. all you really do is upload the other tune into compare and see what's different. if there's something you like copy and paste it into your tune and flash.

just for the heck of it.. here's a pic, hopefully it's not to blurry of my 6.0 hybrid high octane timing map and my ls3 c6 stock maps. not that you'd want to run these, just a visual of why I'm supised you're seeing 30 plus deg. 3000lb car with a ls3 doesn't even run that. and I've since pulled 2deg from this map for hard driving, it just feels smoother, might give up hp thou. I just saw it talked about somewhere, tired it and was like huh, engine seems happier so I left it out.

 

[Geotrash]

it would be cool to see what other guys that tow have for tunes either stock or what someone like black bear has setup. of they would be willing to share info with you.

I suppose this gives me a reason to finally take the shrink-wrap off my MPVI3 and hook it up to my computer and Yukon. The tune in my 2012 was done by Blackbear and I also still have a copy of the stock tune files.

 

[Foggy]

interesting. sounds like you got a handle on it pretty well really. it's just my curiosity as to if a stock tune would be in pe mode open loop targeting a richer a/f at that point. like you say, you're not in unsafe territory at all.

it would be cool to see what other guys that tow have for tunes either stock or what someone like black bear has setup. of they would be willing to share info with you.


but yes, these days it's my understanding you really never flash a new tune from another file. all you really do is upload the other tune into compare and see what's different. if there's something you like copy and paste it into your tune and flash.

just for the heck of it.. here's a pic, hopefully it's not to blurry of my 6.0 hybrid high octane timing map and my ls3 c6 stock maps. not that you'd want to run these, just a visual of why I'm supised you're seeing 30 plus deg. 3000lb car with a ls3 doesn't even run that. and I've since pulled 2deg from this map for hard driving, it just feels smoother, might give up hp thou. I just saw it talked about somewhere, tired it and was like huh, engine seems happier so I left it out.

Second one looks pretty similar to my timing map !! I'm sure that there are
some spark adder modifiers that come into play as cylinder airmass changes.
Ive re-smoothed several cells in mine and taken out 1-2* here and there..
I won't be towing the beast for a couple more weeks or so, so I won't know
any new data til then.. And it may be a lot cooler - who knows around here

 

[Foggy]

I have a 2012 yukon 6.2 stock file if you need. (two from hptuners repository) both identical.

I have one from the repository that's supposed to be stock... It is in some areas
but I found discrepancies in a few areas when comparing to other known stock tunes..
So I wasn't confident.. Also, I don't "think" there are any differences from 2012 to 2014
but gm may have done some updating

 

[Foggy]

I suppose this gives me a reason to finally take the shrink-wrap off my MPVI3 and hook it up to my computer and Yukon. The tune in my 2012 was done by Blackbear and I also still have a copy of the stock tune files.

Heck Yeah !!!
You can just do a "read only" and see what you have.. SAVE that tune !!!!!!!!!
You'd be surprised at all the stuff there - lots above my pay grade

 

[j91z28d1]

can the new mpiv3 log without a lap top?

My old mpiv1 I can setup what pids to log and there's a bit of internal memory. I keep it mounted in the glove box of my ls3 car, so I can just reach over and hit the log button of I notice something weird. later take it inside when I have time to scan the log.. for the truck you could be towing, see a big incline. hit the record button and log the whole thing without having to pay attention to it. inspect the log later one to see if there's anything interesting.

I've wondered if the new ones still do that being little wireless dongles.

 

[j91z28d1]

Second one looks pretty similar to my timing map !! I'm sure that there are
some spark adder modifiers that come into play as cylinder airmass changes.
Ive re-smoothed several cells in mine and taken out 1-2* here and there..
I won't be towing the beast for a couple more weeks or so, so I won't know
any new data til then.. And it may be a lot cooler - who knows around here

yeah I don't know what all modifiers each tune would have. the 2nd one is my c6. that's a light weight manual ls3 93 tune. it's been about 2 years since I even looked at a log from it, but I don't remember final timing at at wot being much more than the base map, but that's also just wot logs I was looking at. never looked at a log towing heavy at part throttle.

 

[Foggy]

can the new log without a lap top?

My old mpiv1 I can setup what pids to log and there's a bit of internal memory. I keep it mounted in the glove box of my ls3 car, so I can just reach over and hit the log button of I notice something weird. later take it inside when I have time to scan the log.. for the truck you could be towing, see a big incline. hit the record button and log the whole thing without having to pay attention to it. inspect the log later one to see if there's anything interesting.

I've wondered if the new ones still do that being little wireless dongles.

Not that I'm aware. I have the mpvi2.. Have to have a laptop for anything

 

[j91z28d1]

they should have at least made a phone app what could store a log for you.


lame, I hope my 1 never goes bad. I see the first gens pop up for sale for the same price as new ones, I wonder if that's why.

 

[mikez71]

I have the mpiv3. It can do standalone logging but the polling rate is much reduced. To get anything useful you still need laptop to record.

 

[Woodblocker55]

I been reading about this issue but in old school world heavy 1/2 ton rig shouldn't go over 12,000 lbs GVCW ( truck and trailer ) it was just a rule of thumb for years. And with a 24 ft travel trailer hitting 6250 and 1500 lbs of gear water etc. 7750 lbs and if rig at 5700 lbs 13,450 lbs add people and fuel your over 14,000 lbs . Its numbers RV people been fighting for years. I see 30-35 ft trailers guys pulling with 1/2 tons pretty much all of them can tell you a transmission story. Depending on how many miles they pull them.
This just what I have learned for years .. Hope the info helps someone..

 

[MadMax1]

I have a 2009 tahoe with the upgraded towing package. I towed a 7500lb camper 200 miles at 60mph. My trans temp got to 215 but mostly stayed under that. Now my trans shifts different than before I did the tow. Any ideas?

 

[j91z28d1]

I have the mpiv3. It can do standalone logging but the polling rate is much reduced. To get anything useful you still need laptop to record.

that's good. mine has small storage, so you gotta be picky about what you need to log. you wouldn't be tuning vve tables off it. but it's super helpful for issues

 

[mikez71]

Yep mine even missed logging some shifts, perhaps if I reduce the channels recorded, but a lot of resolution is lost..