"While I'm in there" pickup tube hoobla

[SnowDrifter]

Trying to get a list of things in the 'ol amazon cart. Going to do my pickup tube seal next OCI

I always told myself if I have the pan off, then I'll do the front cover gasket. The gaskets intermingle so it just makes sense to do them at the same time to me. I'd do the rear cover too if that didn't mean pulling the engine


Sooooooo I just need a sanity check / recommendations / thoughts / whatever

Oil pan gasket: Fel-Pro OS30693R

Front cover gasket: Fel-Pro TCS 45993 - includes water pump gaskets and front crank seal

Oil cooler plate gasket - If memory serves I don't have an oil cooler, just the blockoff plate. I see there are two gasket styles though - one with 2 holes, another with an oval. Are they swappable in my application? Will double check if I have a cooler or just the blockoff tomorrow. It's a little crappy out right now to be crawling under the car

Would make sense to replace the harmonic balancer + crank bolt while I have it out. AC Delco? Aftermarket? Are these things keyed? Or press fit only?

Same goes for water pump - 140k on the original one and I'm certainly not putting it back on. AC Delco again? I'm a little wary of aftermarkets on this one due to having an open impeller vs. closed, though I'm open to recommendations.

Going to toss in a HP/HV oil pump while I'm in there. More oil flow, just set it and forget it. Will be beneficial I think to have in there as the engine ages tolerances get sloppier. Melling M295HV. My last vehicle - A subaru, was known to crack the pickup tubes themselves. Is this something our vehicles are prone to? Does it make sense to replace the entire pickup tube at this point?

Since I'm going to have the timing gears off to do the oil pump, does it make sense to replace those as well? I've read hit or miss stuff in regard to replacements being looser than the originals. Do these engines have any plastic timing chain guides? That's on my list if so


Tstat is a year old, I'm not worried about that


Uhh... Coolant/oil/filter. Kicking around the idea of installing a coolant filter. TBD

Edit: Belts too. Ones I have aren't worn, but I'm not all to happy with them. They're a bit chatty in cold weather


Anything else I should do while I'm there? No I'm not putting a performance cam in. Not until my transmission ***** out anyway

 

[SnowDrifter]

Also: Do I need that fancy front cover alignment tool?


My oil pan has a helicoil in it thanks to an unknown shop prior to my ownership. I don't really like them, but I feel its worth asking: Is this cause to replace the oil pan? Is it fine?

 

[SnowDrifter]

 

[MrBalll]

Bump.

 

[swathdiver]

Trying to get a list of things in the 'ol amazon cart. Going to do my pickup tube seal next OCI

I always told myself if I have the pan off, then I'll do the front cover gasket. The gaskets intermingle so it just makes sense to do them at the same time to me. I'd do the rear cover too if that didn't mean pulling the engine


Sooooooo I just need a sanity check / recommendations / thoughts / whatever

Oil pan gasket: Fel-Pro OS30693R

Front cover gasket: Fel-Pro TCS 45993 - includes water pump gaskets and front crank seal

Oil cooler plate gasket - If memory serves I don't have an oil cooler, just the blockoff plate. I see there are two gasket styles though - one with 2 holes, another with an oval. Are they swappable in my application? Will double check if I have a cooler or just the blockoff tomorrow. It's a little crappy out right now to be crawling under the car

Would make sense to replace the harmonic balancer + crank bolt while I have it out. AC Delco? Aftermarket? Are these things keyed? Or press fit only?

Same goes for water pump - 140k on the original one and I'm certainly not putting it back on. AC Delco again? I'm a little wary of aftermarkets on this one due to having an open impeller vs. closed, though I'm open to recommendations.

Going to toss in a HP/HV oil pump while I'm in there. More oil flow, just set it and forget it. Will be beneficial I think to have in there as the engine ages tolerances get sloppier. Melling M295HV. My last vehicle - A subaru, was known to crack the pickup tubes themselves. Is this something our vehicles are prone to? Does it make sense to replace the entire pickup tube at this point?

Since I'm going to have the timing gears off to do the oil pump, does it make sense to replace those as well? I've read hit or miss stuff in regard to replacements being looser than the originals. Do these engines have any plastic timing chain guides? That's on my list if so


Tstat is a year old, I'm not worried about that


Uhh... Coolant/oil/filter. Kicking around the idea of installing a coolant filter. TBD

Edit: Belts too. Ones I have aren't worn, but I'm not all to happy with them. They're a bit chatty in cold weather


Anything else I should do while I'm there? No I'm not putting a performance cam in. Not until my transmission ***** out anyway

I would use all GM OE or ACDelco unless I knew who made those parts for GM or ACDelco and they were less expensive. Don't worry about the helicoil, they are better. Look up Gen III timing chains, yes, they have plastic alignment parts which many prefer over Gen IV.

You forgot something though, a CAMSHAFT! You're going to strip the motor down that far and not drop a cam in it? You cray cray man! LOL A little itty bitty drop in cam, don't even have to remove the intake or heads, Crane or Cam Motion and you're good to go another 200K.

 

[SnowDrifter]

No cam for me. Trying not to blow the transmission up lmao. I'm doing exactly zero performance stuff to this rig until the stock trans ***** the bed, at which point I'll toss in a built unit and all bets are off at that point.

I've traditionally steered away from anything that has plastic guides. Seems the guides wear out before anything else and cause issues, though I'd like to hear your input on what advantages that would offer

Also: Front cover alignment tool - yay or nay?

 

[iamdub]

I've traditionally steered away from anything that has plastic guides. Seems the guides wear out before anything else and cause issues, though I'd like to hear your input on what advantages that would offer

Also: Front cover alignment tool - yay or nay?

There are two types of timing chain guides (AKA dampers, tensioners). It seems that the preferred one is the "LS2 style"- the block that mounts in the center. The newer style is the spring-loaded leaves and there have been reports of the spring coming loose and ending up in the oil pan.

I'd get the tool. It sucks that you have to spend $40 on something you'll probably never use again. But, that $40 is nothing if you have to tear it all back down because your new crank seal is leaking. Maybe see if you can borrow one?

 

[SnowDrifter]

I was under the impression that the LM7s didn't have any sort of tensioner or damper system? What would installing one offer?

Also: I was doing some poking at the front cover alignment tools listed in the procedure, J-41480 and J-41476. They're some pricey things. Nearing a grand for the pair. To be frank, that's more than I'm willing to swallow for a one time thing. Might bankroll this job off to the dealer or anyone else who has this stuff on hand. I'd love to do it myself, but a grand pays for a lot of labor

 

[iamdub]

I was under the impression that the LM7s didn't have any sort of tensioner or damper system? What would installing one offer?

The LM7 not having one was probably a cost-cutting measure made by the rectally-retentive bean counters at GM. The damper is to limit the amount the chain whips back and forth under higher RPM deceleration, such as between gear changes. Maybe they figured this scenario wouldn't happen, or happen often enough in a truck equipped with the LM7, so it was one area to save a couple bucks. This scenario is guaranteed to happen in a car equipped with an LS2, so those had this damper. If you go WOT enough to be concerned, I'd get one as cheap insurance. You can get THIS kit to make it a bolt-on affair if you don't wanna drill and tap your block.

Also: I was doing some poking at the front cover alignment tools listed in the procedure, J-41480 and J-41476. They're some pricey things. Nearing a grand for the pair. To be frank, that's more than I'm willing to swallow for a one time thing. Might bankroll this job off to the dealer or anyone else who has this stuff on hand. I'd love to do it myself, but a grand pays for a lot of labor

lolwuuuut. THIS is all you need.

 

[SnowDrifter]

Sweet thanks


And what about the gasket alignment? Any alternatives to that tool? I tried to find if anyone was 3d printing them for one time use or something and didn't have any luck. It's to make sure the front cover is flush with the bottom of the pan and 'droop' the gasket by a measured amount.

Cheapest I could find the thing for is a buck 15


Looks like this

 

[iamdub]

Sweet thanks


And what about the gasket alignment? Any alternatives to that tool? I tried to find if anyone was 3d printing them for one time use or something and didn't have any luck. It's to make sure the front cover is flush with the bottom of the pan and 'droop' the gasket by a measured amount.

Cheapest I could find the thing for is a buck 15


Looks like this

If I wanted to make sure two surfaces were flush with each other, I'd simply use a straightedge.

The idea is that the cover needs to be at an exact position so that the seal is centered on the crankshaft and so that the bottom of it is on the same plane as the oil pan. When the engine is being assembled at a factory, it's easy to use two separate purpose-built tools to achieve this, regardless of the high cost. Basically, one tool sets the vertical position (the "Y" axis) and the other sets the horizontal position (the "X" axis). What you will end up with, and this is the critical factor, is the seal will be centered around the crankshaft. So, if you used one tool that focused on this point, you'll get the hole in the cover in the correct location. The problem is that the cover can be rotated (clocked) slightly one way or the other as it can rotate around this centered position. This can widen the gap at the bottom where the cover meets the oil pan on one side and tighten it on the other. So, you want it even. The blessing is that this isn't nearly as critical as the crank seal alignment. The other point, as you mentioned, is the gasket. Part of it's sealing is at the very bottom, on a plane adjacent to the block and cover surfaces. Simply enough, you want only the rubber (nitrile, silicone, whatever it is) part of the gasket revealed at that point and none of the metal frame of the gasket protruding. Honestly, you can achieve this by sight and feel. What most do is to make everything flush- bottom of block, bottom of cover and bottom of gasket, then pack in a dab of RTV sealant to fill in the slight void so that it will be sealed when the oil pan is torqued into position. Basically, what you're doing is "extending" the rubber sealing part at the bottom of the gasket. Personally, I think this method is better since it's easier, doesn't require an expensive tool and the RTV can be squished to fill in any microscopic voids. Using RTV on an assembly line doesn't happen because there's no consistent control of the application throughout hundreds of thousands of engines, let alone the cure time required of the RTV. So they design a special gasket and special tools to ensure consistent assembly standards.


So, use the $40 tool to get the cover centered radially, use a straightedge to get the bottom surfaces flush, slip the gasket down so that the rubber part protrudes a little if you want, finger-tighten everything, dab in some RTV, torque everything down and get 'er back together.

 

[SnowDrifter]

Awesome, I appreciate the explanation!

 

[Ilikemtb999]

You can use the damper to center the front cover. Loosely install the cover and then install the damper.

 

[bottomline2000]

There are no plastic tensioners in the timing set. At least not in my engine. I run a billet timing gear, but I've not heard of anyone having problems with the stock chain. I did an aftermarket cam hence the timing set upgrade. I used the sac city alignment kit to center the front cover..they have 2 kinds for the front plate..I prefer the one that works with the bare front plate and u can use it to install the front seal properly. .a straight edge or the oil pan itself will keep the front plate level.

The crank bolt is one time use and I suggest you get a crank balance install kit. It's like a threaded rod that threads deep into the crank and them presses the pulley on...u don't want to strip the crank threads..the crank is not keyed, but I keyed mime for future plans. ARP makes a reusable crank bolt, but it's not cheap..and not needed for your purpose..

make sure u used the right color oring for the pick up.i believe it's orange..

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-T377A using Tapatalk

 

[iamdub]

You can use the damper to center the front cover. Loosely install the cover and then install the damper.

Kinda. I've done this on engines outside of the vehicle when I could see the seal. The problem is that you're relying the seal, which is flexible, to center it. The weight of the cover will press the top of the seal harder against the crank and the bottom will have less pressure. It'll be such a small amount that you may not be able to see it, especially if the engine is in the vehicle. When I did it on the engine stand, I used a razor blade to trace the cover on the block at three or four points before I removed it. Then I'd use the crank pulley to center the cover with the new seal, tap it up that half a blonde hair's thickness to meet the scored lines, then tighten it. I never had a leak but after the third or fourth motor, I invested in a centering tool.

 

[Ilikemtb999]

Kinda. I've done this on engines outside of the vehicle when I could see the seal. The problem is that you're relying the seal, which is flexible, to center it. The weight of the cover will press the top of the seal harder against the crank and the bottom will have less pressure. It'll be such a small amount that you may not be able to see it, especially if the engine is in the vehicle. When I did it on the engine stand, I used a razor blade to trace the cover on the block at three or four points before I removed it. Then I'd use the crank pulley to center the cover with the new seal, tap it up that half a blonde hair's thickness to meet the scored lines, then tighten it. I never had a leak but after the third or fourth motor, I invested in a centering tool.

How is the tool any different than the end of the dampener? I’ve never actually held the tool in my hand but it can’t take up anymore room in the seal than the dampener end.

 

[iamdub]

I was curious and wanted to compare the Sac City tool to the CBM. Really, they all perform the same function. Bottomline's post led me to Sac City's site and I saw they had a video on there that'll give you a visual of what I was trying to explain:

 

[iamdub]

How is the tool any different than the end of the dampener? I’ve never actually held the tool in my hand but it can’t take up anymore room in the seal than the dampener end.

The tool is used with the seal NOT installed. It slips over the crank and the OD of the tool meets the ID of the hole in the cover that the seal would press in to. Metal-on-metal, so no room for error. It's kinda dumb for someone to buy the tool that just mimics the OD of the damper and still relies on the flap in the seal as part of the centering when they could just use the damper itself. The tool with a little bigger OD that is used before the seal is installed makes far more sense since it's the same price and requires the same steps.


Now you got me second-guessing myself: Chris, make sure you get the tool that does NOT use the seal. I'm not sure at this point if that one I linked you to does this.

 

[Ilikemtb999]

The tool is used with the seal NOT installed. It slips over the crank and the OD of the tool meets the ID of the hole in the cover that the seal would press in to. Metal-on-metal, so no room for error. It's kinda dumb for someone to buy the tool that just mimics the OD of the damper and still relies on the flap in the seal as part of the centering when they could just use the damper itself. The tool with a little bigger OD that is used before the seal is installed makes far more sense since it's the same price and requires the same steps.


Now you got me second-guessing myself: Chris, make sure you get the tool that does NOT use the seal. I'm not sure at this point if that one I linked you to does this.

Ah ok, nothing really denotes that in the listings for tools so I figured it just mimicked the dampener end. Good info for sure.

 

[iamdub]

Ah ok, nothing really denotes that in the listings for tools so I figured it just mimicked the dampener end. Good info for sure.

Right, which is why I was second-guessing what I linked Chris to cuz they do have both styles and that mimicking one is just stupid.