Transmission interchagability

[stevesbermudablue]

Hi new guy here and doing a trans swap. I have a 05 z71 tahoe 4x4. What trans will interchange?
A parts yard says they have a 05envoy that will interchange, can you confirm this? Also I'm told 05 is a 1 off year is this also correct?

 

[strutaeng]

Post #10

What year transmissions interchange 100%? - LS1TECH - Camaro and Firebird Forum Discussion

Automatic Transmission - What year transmissions interchange 100%? - If I need a new 4L60e or one from a salvage yard, which years interchange electrically (same plugs and pinouts)? For example, if I had a 2002 model originally, would a 2008 one bolt and plug right in? Same question for a 4L65e...

ls1tech.com

I would recommend a transmission from a full sized vehicle. I'm not entirely sure on the mid sized vehicles, but I know at least the torque converter stall speed is different, maybe some other differences. Stick with full sized: truck or SUV are fine.

 

[NickTransmissions]

Hi new guy here and doing a trans swap. I have a 05 z71 tahoe 4x4. What trans will interchange?
A parts yard says they have a 05envoy that will interchange, can you confirm this? Also I'm told 05 is a 1 off year is this also correct?

Will not interchange if the envoy has one of those inline 5 engines. Input shaft, bell housing and torque converter are completely different.

Any 2000-2008 4WD 4L60E that went in behind a Gen3 small block will work.

That said, why not rebuild the one in the vehicle now?

 

[Joseph Garcia]

Welcome to the Forum from NH.

Lots of knowledgeable folks here who freely share their knowledge, experiences, and perspectives. Knowledge is power.

I hope that you will become a participating member in the Forum's discussions.

Pics of the truck, please.

You are already receiving sage advice from the knowledgeable folks on this Forum.

You can take what @NickTransmissions to the bank, as he's our resident transmission expert.

 

[TollKeeper]

The transmission will work from the Envoy... But there are a couple catches..

If its from a 4.2 Inline -6-, you will have to swap the bell housing, and the torque converter. Its a easy bolt off and bolt on thing.
If its from a 5.3 V8, you will likely have to swap the torque converter.

05 is kinda a one off year depending on the platform. 2005 GM started introducing the 5.3 with AFM/DOD, and with that, they changed some sensors on the transmission. Which platform had what? I have no idea.

As someone mentioned above, I would try to find a full size platform similar to yours, to grab your donor from..

But I would also just get your current rebuilt. Yes its going to be more expensive. But the 4L60 is already a transmission on the edge.. I would not risk it.

 

[TollKeeper]

Will not interchange if the envoy has one of those inline 5 engines. Input shaft, bell housing and torque converter are completely different.

Any 2000-2008 4WD 4L60E that went in behind a Gen3 small block will work.

Pretty sure most of that is in-correct.

Bell Housing. Yes
Torque Converter. Yes and no. It will work, but has the wrong stall speed.
Input Shaft. Not Correct
2000-2008 4L60 will work. Not Correct. They started adding sensors in 2005 that the PCM is looking for. If they arent there, it can cause the transmission to go into limp mode, throw check lights, etc.

They are backwards compatible. But not forwards. A 2006 will work in a 2004, but a 2004 will not work correctly in a 2006.

2005 had both variants, depending on platform.

 

[NickTransmissions]

Pretty sure most of that is in-correct.

Bell Housing. Yes
Torque Converter. Yes and no. It will work, but has the wrong stall speed.
Input Shaft. Not Correct
2000-2008 4L60 will work. Not Correct. They started adding sensors in 2005 that the PCM is looking for. If they arent there, it can cause the transmission to go into limp mode, throw check lights, etc.

They are backwards compatible. But not forwards. A 2005 will work in a 2004, but a 2004 will not work correctly in a 2005.

Pretty Sure???

How many 2000-2013 4L60Es have you built? I've built hundreds over the past 15 years...

He has a 2005, per his OP...If his has no TSS, any 2001-2008 V8 300mm input design 4L60E will plug and play. If it does, he's limited to those units with the TSS up to 2009. He can reuse his original converter or purchase a new one (recommend he do the latter).

Can't tell you how many 2005 units I have rebuilt that DO NOT have the TSS (including the 2005 currently in my 2003 Tahoe that I rebuilt and installed)....A majority of them do not. It's much more common in 2006+.

Rest of the electronics/Trans command/control logic did not change until 2009.

So most of what you stated above is incorrect.

 

[TollKeeper]

My 2005 Saab 9-7x had the TSS, and its the same exact truck as a 2005 GMC Envoy...

Are we going to risk him buying a transmission on a assumption that it might not have a TSS? I am not taking that risk. You can if you want.

Go with what you know. I know his MIGHT have a TSS, it also might not. If his truck needs one, and he buys one that doesnt, he is back to square one. If he buys one that has it, and he doesnt need it, hes ok, as the PCM just wont use that input.

Edit: Just to clarify, the salvage yard that has the 2005 Envoy transmission is still a unknown as for this sensor. Just because my 2005 had it, doesnt mean this one will, and its unknown if the OP needs that sensor or not.

 

[strutaeng]

My 2005 Saab 9-7x had the TSS, and its the same exact truck as a 2005 GMC Envoy...

Are we going to risk him buying a transmission on a assumption that it might not have a TSS? I am not taking that risk. You can if you want.

Go with what you know. I know his MIGHT have a TSS, it also might not. If his truck needs one, and he buys one that doesnt, he is back to square one. If he buys one that has it, and he doesnt need it, hes ok, as the PCM just wont use that input.

Edit: Just to clarify, the salvage yard that has the 2005 Envoy transmission is still a unknown as for this sensor. Just because my 2005 had it, doesnt mean this one will, and its unknown if the OP needs that sensor or not.

I concur with @NickTransmissions

Your Saab is probably identical (?) to the full-sized 4L60e because it is mated to an LS. That's not the case on the regular Envoys and Trailblazers. The difference are the input shaft 298 mm vs 300 mm, and as was noted, the Atlas bellhousing bolt pattern, and who knows what else internally. Externally they may look the same though.

Edit: oh, I didn't know the Envoys also had the 5.3...doh!

 

[NickTransmissions]

My 2005 Saab 9-7x had the TSS, and its the same exact truck as a 2005 GMC Envoy...

Are we going to risk him buying a transmission on a assumption that it might not have a TSS? I am not taking that risk. You can if you want.

Go with what you know. I know his MIGHT have a TSS, it also might not. If his truck needs one, and he buys one that doesnt, he is back to square one. If he buys one that has it, and he doesnt need it, hes ok, as the PCM just wont use that input.

Edit: Just to clarify, the salvage yard that has the 2005 Envoy transmission is still a unknown as for this sensor. Just because my 2005 had it, doesnt mean this one will, and its unknown if the OP needs that sensor or not.

So...How many 2000-2013 4L60Es have you rebuilt over the years??
You left this question completely unanswered.

Your Saab is in the minority and has a completely different engine belonging to a completely different engine family! Those units are completely different where it counts (as I mentioned to him in my initial reply, if you bothered to read it). The TSS wasn't integrated on a widespread basis into the V8 Gen3 SBC units until 2007 with the advent of the GMT900 platform.

The only one putting him (and anyone else reading this thread for guidance) is you!

But instead of admitting you may have mis-stated things and amend your post, you want to keep digging.

I'm not perfect and have learned A LOT MORE than I have taught since joining this forum. Additionally, there's been a few times where I've stood corrected and learned something in the process.
Perhaps you can learn to do the same, perhaps not.

Your move...

 

[TollKeeper]

I concur with @NickTransmissions

Your Saab is probably identical (?) to the full-sized 4L60e because it is mated to an LS. That's not the case on the regular Envoys and Trailblazers. The difference are the input shaft 298 mm vs 300 mm, and as was noted, the Atlas bellhousing bolt pattern, and who knows what else internally. Externally they may look the same though.

I will admit, we are missing details of the donor truck. Lets not forget the Envoy came with a 4.2L I6 standard, and 5.3L V8 as a option. And the Saab came with the same engines that the Envoy came with, Standard 4.2L I6, and the optional 5.3L V8. The only difference is that some Saabs also came with the 6.0 V8, and no Envoy came with the 6.0.

The bell housing makes no difference, as it externally bolts on, and is easy to remove, and replace. Done it before.

So...How many 2000-2013 4L60Es have you rebuilt over the years??
You left this question completely unanswered.

Your Saab is in the minority and has a completely different engine belonging to a completely different engine family! Those units are completely different where it counts (as I mentioned to him in my initial reply, if you bothered to read it). The TSS wasn't integrated on a widespread basis into the V8 Gen3 SBC units until 2007 with the advent of the GMT900 platform.

The only one putting him (and anyone else reading this thread for guidance) is you!

But instead of admitting you may have mis-stated things and amend your post, you want to keep digging.

I'm not perfect and have learned A LOT MORE than I have taught since joining this forum. Additionally, there's been a few times where I've stood corrected and learned something in the process.
Perhaps you can learn to do the same, perhaps not.

Your move...

If you are too high and mighty to admit you -may- be wrong here.. thats on you. I will say you might be right. There are just to many variables that we dont know.

Please point out anything I have stated that is factually incorrect. You cant, cause it doesnt exist.

You are a transmission tech, and I get that. You have done more transmissions than I ever will, and I get that.

I am speaking from my 28 years as a GM Certified Master Tech background. I am not saying that as a superiority complex, but just to say I have been down this road. Warranty companies saving a buck on a used transmission that doesnt come with the right setup for the truck its going in, installing it only to find out its wrong, cause its not easy to see its not right externally.

All I am saying is I have been down the road on a 2005, getting the wrong tranny, and finding out its wrong. It sucks. It sucks bad.

What would make this easy is just finding out if he has a TSS. If he doesnt have one, than all this doesnt matter. If he has one, than we could be saving him time, and money.

I dont want him to have that issue.

 

[tooleyondeck]

Let's say you find an 05 4L60e from another Z71 for a good price. Until you tear it down or get it installed, it's condition is unknown. A rebuild is a good opportunity to beef it up for the long run, especially if you plan on keeping it. If you need to get back on the road and the budget allows, perhaps do both: swap it for another one while your original one is being rebuilt.

@NickTransmissions your videos have been super helpful! Transmission work has always been intimidating to me but I've learned a lot from you and other sources and I am slowly getting the ball$ to tackle a rebuild myself.

 

[NickTransmissions]

I will admit, we are missing details of the donor truck. Lets not forget the Envoy came with a 4.2L I6 standard, and 5.3L V8 as a option. And the Saab came with the same engines that the Envoy came with, Standard 4.2L I6, and the optional 5.3L V8. The only difference is that some Saabs also came with the 6.0 V8, and no Envoy came with the 6.0.

The bell housing makes no difference, as it externally bolts on, and is easy to remove, and replace. Done it before.


If you are too high and mighty to admit you -may- be wrong here.. thats on you. I will say you might be right. There are just to many variables that we dont know.

Please point out anything I have stated that is factually incorrect. You cant, cause it doesnt exist.

You are a transmission tech, and I get that. You have done more transmissions than I ever will, and I get that.

I am speaking from my 28 years as a GM Certified Master Tech background. I am not saying that as a superiority complex, but just to say I have been down this road. Warranty companies saving a buck on a used transmission that doesnt come with the right setup for the truck its going in, installing it only to find out its wrong, cause its not easy to see its not right externally.

All I am saying is I have been down the road on a 2005, getting the wrong tranny, and finding out its wrong. It sucks. It sucks bad.

What would make this easy is just finding out if he has a TSS. If he doesnt have one, than all this doesnt matter. If he has one, than we could be saving him time, and money.

I dont want him to have that issue.

He can contact any GM Dealership parts department and give the last 8 of the VIN to confirm/deny his transmission is equipped with a TSS then purchase a TSS-equipped 4L60E.

Don't make statements like, "I think most of that is incorrect" then realize you stepped in it. As a certified master tech, figured you'd extent that professional courtesy but not the first time I've been wrong about that; won't be the last either. If my post was unclear to you, ask for clarification or that I restate.

You can have the last word, I'm done w/this exchange.

 

[NickTransmissions]

Let's say you find an 05 4L60e from another Z71 for a good price. Until you tear it down or get it installed, it's condition is unknown. A rebuild is a good opportunity to beef it up for the long run, especially if you plan on keeping it. If you need to get back on the road and the budget allows, perhaps do both: swap it for another one while your original one is being rebuilt.

@NickTransmissions your videos have been super helpful! Transmission work has always been intimidating to me but I've learned a lot from you and other sources and I am slowly getting the ball$ to tackle a rebuild myself.

Yep, exactly.

I've rebuilt countless 'good used' / transplant 4L60Es that went belly up within 6 months after being installed...I know a rebuild can be out of reach for a variety of reasons but if folks can either save or take on the work themselves, they should absolutely do it.

Not sure if @stevesbermudablue is going to come back to this thread but I have a video on how to buy one of those units, things he and anyone else looking reduce the likelihood they don't come home with a dud.

 

[strutaeng]

Ah, the classical Newbie posting a question and disappearing into the Internet shadows, LoL.

Yeah, the mid-sized vehicles are tricky. That's why I had suggested sticking with a full sized 4L60e: Silverado, Tahoe, Suburban, etc. Maybe even the H2.

S-10, Sonomas, Blazers, Trailblazers, Envoys, Colorados, Saabs, Express Vans, not sure what else GM put in the 4L60e, were a mix of I4, I5, I6, V6 and V8s? I will admit, I don't know much about those variants. Actually, I don't even know much on the 4L60e to begin with, just what I've read online and the basics.

...oh, they also used them on the F-bodies and Corvettes, duh.

 

[NickTransmissions]

Ah, the classical Newbie posting a question and disappearing into the Internet shadows, LoL.

Yeah, the mid-sized vehicles are tricky. That's why I had suggested sticking with a full sized 4L60e: Silverado, Tahoe, Suburban, etc. Maybe even the H2.

S-10, Sonomas, Blazers, Trailblazers, Envoys, Colorados, Saabs, Express Vans, not sure what else GM put in the 4L60e, were a mix of I4, I5, I6, V6 and V8s? I will admit, I don't know much about those variants. Actually, I don't even know much on the 4L60e to begin with, just what I've read online and the basics.

...oh, they also used them on the F-bodies and Corvettes, duh.

Yep, the 4L60E landscape can be a minefield to navigate when it comes to interchangeability, both in part and as an assembled unit.

The Gen3 sbc 4L60Es in the full size trucks/suvs are all largely the same other than the TSS through 2008. In 2009, all 4L60Es underwent significant C3 and component changes, the most prominent being the introduction of the internal mode switch which replaced the mlps/trans fluid pressure switch manifold. They also eliminated the 3-2 control solenoid and valve train so the case, valve body as well as the command/control logic also changed. As is, those units wont retro to 2008 and earlier vehicles and vise versa.

The 4L60Es that went into the in-line engines had a diff bell housing, input shaft, pan, filter and 1-2 acc housing/base plate than the V8 versions of that transmission. And it would take a lot more adaptation then simply swapping bell housings from one unit to another to mate to a Gen3 small block. In fact, once you do all the adaptation required, it's just a little bit more work to simply overhaul the existing unit, defeating the purpose of the swap (unless the existing unit is grenaded and you're using two transmissions to make one good one (I've had to do that numerous times over the years).

This 4L60E from a 2010 Colorado with a 3.7L engine...Note the differences: input shaft, converter and bell.
View attachment 433534

Gen3 SBC (4.3-6.0) 4L60E

 

[NickTransmissions]

@stevesbermudablue or anyone else reading...

While I didn't mention it initially (skipped my mind when arguing with that other poster), you can also tell whether or not a given 4L60E has a turbine speed sensor by looking at the color of the transmission's wiring harness case connector.

- The green/gray connectors are attached to wiring harnesses that DO NOT have a TSS Connector

- The dark gray/brown connectors are attached to wiring harnesses that DO have a TSS Connector

- The blue harnesses are attached to wiring harnesses that have a TSS connector as well as an IMS connector (2009+) - These units ARE NOT INTERCHANGEABLE with 2008 and earlier vehicles!

Harness with gray/green connector (2003-2005 - no input speed sensor)

Harness with Black/brown connector (L2005-2008 - input speed sensor)

Harness with Blue/Brown connector (2009+ - input speed sensor, internal mode switch and integral trans temp sensor)