Rebuiding my front end - upgrades?

[calsdad]

There we go... that's the information I was looking for. I guess I should have known about the hubs, that makes sense with 6-lug vs 8-lug wheels.

I just crawled under mine to look for what is making noise - I really couldn't see anything out of whack. Maybe I won't bother rebuilding, just get it aligned and see if I'm happier with it. It's definitely pulling left and sometimes seems to wander, but I could be a bit hypervigilant, I dunno.

I had some banging under mine after I did the suspension rebuild. It turned out to be the swaybar links I used - which I just couldn't seem to get aligned in such a way as they wouldn't bind up. After screwing with them like 5 times I eventually just gave up and put a set of "standard" type swaybar links in there that were really heavy duty. That solved the problem and they've been fine for like two years now.

The whole " I got under there and started pulling on things to see what was loose" trick - is something that just doesn't work on trucks IMHO. First off you're unlikely to put the kind of forces on a suspension piece with your own physical strength - as compared to what gets put on them by the truck itself, also trying to do it with the truck jacked up (which is what a lot of people do) - is not going to put the suspension in the same place it is when the noise is being produced.

 

[calsdad]

I am really interested to see if replacing those helps that noise I'm hearing. I think it's pretty obvious I need an alignment, but none of the places I've been to here do I trust - they've all tried to upsell me a bunch of sh*t I obviously don't need. One of them tried to tell me they weren't going to let me take my truck because I needed a new Pittman arm - that was, I think... 8 years ago? Still got the same Pittman arm, another 150k miles or more since then.

I had a Goodyear tire shop try that crap on me way back when I was like 17 years old - and it basically turned me into a lifetime DIY'er on doing my own car repairs (I'm 57 now). So they burned their whole industry out of whole lotta money flowing out of my pocket into theirs by being so dishonest.

It was my first car ( a 75 Chevelle) - and pretty much the first thing I did to it was rebuild the entire front suspension and the bushings in the rear axle. This was way back in like 81 or something like that. When I rebuilt the front suspension I put in urethane bushings, a set of KYB gas shocks, new springs - etc. I even went in there and cleaned everything up and painted it up in nice contrasting colors because I thought it looked cool (read a lot of car mags at the time). The car was nice and tight after that and drove really nice too. Then I brought it to the local Goodyear shop to get it aligned. I left it there and me and one of buddies who came with me - went out to get something to eat. Came back an hour later and they had the car up on the lift and the guy started trying to sell me a new set of shocks. He was like "I can't align the car without new shocks on it". I was like " you're full of crap - you could take the shocks OUT COMPLETELY and still align the car - and also LOOK AT THEM - they're COMPLETELY NEW ALREADY" I was like WTF - and pissed off to boot because I needed to get the car aligned and now I had to take it out of that place and start all over again.

Ever since then - if at all possible - I've done my own auto repair work. A few years after that incident - after I got out of college - I even learned to do my own alignments when the shop I worked at bought a new Hunter alignment rack. I was actually the first guy in the shop to use the thing - on my own personal car.

 

[tRidiot]

Did they try to stop you from leaving with your own truck??

They didn't push the issue much when they saw I wasn't going to go for it - they had said, "You know, this is a safety issue with your steering, I'm not sure we should really let you take it out of here the way it is." I made it clear I wasn't committing to any repairs like that without having my own mechanic look at it and they didn't bring it up again.

As above, this shop screwed themselves out of any future business from me, ever. As has the latest shop, as well.

I've always said, "Would you rather make a dime off me once, or a nickel 10 times?" Well, if you have enough people lined up to give you their dimes, then those nickels don't really matter, but in a lot of industries, mine included, repeat business is the key to long term survival.

 

[Tonyrodz]

They didn't push the issue much when they saw I wasn't going to go for it - they had said, "You know, this is a safety issue with your steering, I'm not sure we should really let you take it out of here the way it is." I made it clear I wasn't committing to any repairs like that without having my own mechanic look at it and they didn't bring it up again.

As above, this shop screwed themselves out of any future business from me, ever. As has the latest shop, as well.

I've always said, "Would you rather make a dime off me once, or a nickel 10 times?" Well, if you have enough people lined up to give you their dimes, then those nickels don't really matter, but in a lot of industries, mine included, repeat business is the key to long term survival.

Unbelievable that people even try saying that. They wouldn't have a legal leg to stand on if they did push the issue.

 

[tRidiot]

They try to claim it's a safety issue and they could be liable, blah blah blah. Bottom line is, if it drives in, it can drive out. They may have made me sign a waiver, I dunno.

But considering I've had it inspected by my own trusted mechanic and he said it was fine, AND I've been driving it for 6 or 8 years since then, I think he was right. lol

 

[Justjim]

That all looks really good for 280k

 

[tRidiot]

So I took my truck to another brake and alignment shop this morning. Told the guy the story about the other shop wanting to do 3 ball joints and a wheel hub, then my mechanic checking them and he thought they were ok. He asked if he lifted it on the control arms or the frame, I think? I can't remember, he said you have to do it one way or the other or it will support things and make them feel tight when they're not. I don't know, offhand. Anyways, he called me back later and says, yeah I need two ball joints and hub on the driver's side. I know I replaced that driver's hub or at least bearing once, but that woulda been 8-9y ago, it's had probably 150-180k miles on it since then. Quote was about $950.

I told him I'd like to take it home, pay him for what he's done and see when I can afford to do this, turns out he didn't charge me at all, just said to let him know what I want to do and he'll take care of me.

I told him I had considered doing a full front end, if I got all the parts, what would he charge me to do everything - even Pittman arm, idler arm etc. He quoted me about $1200, which I don't think is too unreasonable, at all. He even told me to get it all on Rock Auto, the parts houses are even having trouble getting parts right now, but if I get the upper end Moog stuff, he says that is the best out there, along with TKW (I think?*), he would definitely recommend that.

So I'm gonna think about doing the whole front end. If I've got 2 ball joints and wheel hub need replacing, at 280k miles, I think I'd be best served doing the whole front end instead, and not be back in 6 or 8 months getting more done on the other side, etc.

*<edit> I cant find any TKW, maybe I didn't catch it right. I have KW coilovers on my 370Z, but they don't make anything for my truck.

<edit 2> Maybe he said TRW. That looks like it could be it.

 

[Tonyrodz]

So I took my truck to another brake and alignment shop this morning. Told the guy the story about the other shop wanting to do 3 ball joints and a wheel hub, then my mechanic checking them and he thought they were ok. He asked if he lifted it on the control arms or the frame, I think? I can't remember, he said you have to do it one way or the other or it will support things and make them feel tight when they're not. I don't know, offhand. Anyways, he called me back later and says, yeah I need two ball joints and hub on the driver's side. I know I replaced that driver's hub or at least bearing once, but that woulda been 8-9y ago, it's had probably 150-180k miles on it since then. Quote was about $950.

I told him I'd like to take it home, pay him for what he's done and see when I can afford to do this, turns out he didn't charge me at all, just said to let him know what I want to do and he'll take care of me.

I told him I had considered doing a full front end, if I got all the parts, what would he charge me to do everything - even Pittman arm, idler arm etc. He quoted me about $1200, which I don't think is too unreasonable, at all. He even told me to get it all on Rock Auto, the parts houses are even having trouble getting parts right now, but if I get the upper end Moog stuff, he says that is the best out there, along with TKW (I think?), he would definitely recommend that.

So I'm gonna think about doing the whole front end. If I've got 2 ball joints and wheel hub need replacing, at 280k miles, I think I'd be best served doing the whole front end instead, and not be back in 6 or 8 months getting more done on the other side, etc.

Def worth paying someone to do the idler arm.

 

[tRidiot]

Def worth paying someone to do the idler arm.

Right, from watching some videos, Pittman arm and idler arm sure look like a bit of a PITA.

 

[tRidiot]

I guess my question is - if the major suspension components LOOK good, i.e., stabilizer bar, upper and lower control arms, etc., should I go ahead and replace them with the idea that they're almost 20y old and are weakened over time, or just replace the stabilizer bar linkages, the ball joints, etc., and keep the solid components?

 

[Tonyrodz]

Imo, if you can do it--I'd just replace the complete upper/lower control arms. Much cheaper and easier then just replacing bushings or ball joints. I'm pretty sure your upper bushings are probably cracked or dry rotted.

 

[tRidiot]

Actually when I was under there the other day, they didn't look bad at all. I was surprised they looked ok. Like my body bushings. But... if I'm gonna rip things out and have them replaced... why not? I think I can get purchase approval from The Wife, so I should exploit while I can, right???? lol

 

[calsdad]

So I took my truck to another brake and alignment shop this morning. Told the guy the story about the other shop wanting to do 3 ball joints and a wheel hub, then my mechanic checking them and he thought they were ok. He asked if he lifted it on the control arms or the frame, I think? I can't remember, he said you have to do it one way or the other or it will support things and make them feel tight when they're not. I don't know, offhand. Anyways, he called me back later and says, yeah I need two ball joints and hub on the driver's side. I know I replaced that driver's hub or at least bearing once, but that woulda been 8-9y ago, it's had probably 150-180k miles on it since then. Quote was about $950.

I told him I'd like to take it home, pay him for what he's done and see when I can afford to do this, turns out he didn't charge me at all, just said to let him know what I want to do and he'll take care of me.

I told him I had considered doing a full front end, if I got all the parts, what would he charge me to do everything - even Pittman arm, idler arm etc. He quoted me about $1200, which I don't think is too unreasonable, at all. He even told me to get it all on Rock Auto, the parts houses are even having trouble getting parts right now, but if I get the upper end Moog stuff, he says that is the best out there, along with TKW (I think?*), he would definitely recommend that.

So I'm gonna think about doing the whole front end. If I've got 2 ball joints and wheel hub need replacing, at 280k miles, I think I'd be best served doing the whole front end instead, and not be back in 6 or 8 months getting more done on the other side, etc.

*<edit> I cant find any TKW, maybe I didn't catch it right. I have KW coilovers on my 370Z, but they don't make anything for my truck.

<edit 2> Maybe he said TRW. That looks like it could be it.

I did the front wheel hub & bearing assemblies on my 2003 2500 Suburban myself - but it was obvious that it needed them as there was noise coming out of the front end that sounded like noisy bearings. When I rebuilt the front end on my 2010 Yukon XL 2500, the hubs & bearings didn't seem like they needed to be replaced - everything seemed tight and there was no obvious noise - but I did them anyway because I was doing everything else in the front end, and I was upgrading the brakes - and because all of my reading thru GM truck forums over the years led me to understand that when you've got 110,000 miles on the truck - the front bearings were likely overdue for replacement.

I went with what seemed to get all the best recomendations for brand : SKF. It's what I put on the 2003 Suburban - and they seem to have worked well so far. I would also add that after I put the new bearings in - even though the old ones didn't seem to be worn out - it was obvious that the new ones were definitely an improvement. I used the SKF "X-Tracker" type front bearings - and they definitely seemed better than what was in there.

With the mileage you have on your truck I would say definitely do them - and do both of them. They're not hard to do at all - at least they haven't been hard to do on either of the trucks I have had.

TRW makes a lot of suspension parts - they've always been good quality from what I know of them.

 

[tRidiot]

Ok, The Wife says to go ahead. We're taking a trip to south TX in 3 weeks over Spring Break and her RAV4 isn't big enough for us all to be comfortable hauling all our crap to sustain use for 8-9 days and the dog.

So it's on like Donkey Kong.

But now I'm feeling guilty about spending a ton, as we're planning 2 major vacations this year, and I've got to buy a vehicle for my son, as he totaled his 2 weeks ago. <sigh> So I'm gonna come up with a couple of options and lists and see what 'level' of repair/rebuild sounds like it makes the most sense right now.

 

[mattt]

Was the $1200, now $950 quote for labor only? Where are you located? If that is labor only, it seems a tad high, but that could be area dependent. Is there another reliable shop you could get an estimate from?

 

[tRidiot]

No he had estimated $950 to do the two ball joints and the hub - including the parts. (The first place I went wanted $1500, I think for 3 ball joints and one hub or bearing).

Then when I went and picked it up, I asked him about if I got all the parts how much to do a complete front end rebuild, including Pitman and idler arm. That was what he quoted me at $1200 for labor only.

 

[tRidiot]

Ok, so I've got a couple of preliminary things put together.

Option #1. Complete front end rebuild. $1,136 parts/~$1200 labor = approx $2300-2500
L/R Upper and Lower Control Arms - Moog CK line
L/R Inner & Outer Tie Rods - AC Delco Gold
Pitman arm, Idler arm and Idler arm bracket - Moog HD line
Center link/Drag link - Moog
Sway Bar/Stabilizer Bar End Links - GM Genuine
L/R Wheel Bearing & Hub - Timken (GM Genuine is Timken, but $40 more)

I didn't include CV axles, though I probable should. About another $110 for APWI or $150 for GSP, the only ones available at Rock Auto. I don't know anything about these two brands, so any help or suggestions would be appreciated. AutoZone doesn't have anything, Carquest brand from Advance are $115 apiece, NAPA new are $130 ea, or remans $67 ea.

Essentially everything under the front end will be replaced except the actual sway bar/stabilizer bar and the brakes. Oh and the steering linkage box? Anyways...

Option #2. Moderate front end rebuild. $658 parts/~600-750 labor?? (guesstimate) = approx $1300-1500
L/R Inner & Outer Tie Rods - Moog
L/R Wheel Bearing & Hub - Timken (GM Genuine is Timken, but $40 more)
Sway Bar/Stabilizer Bar End Links - AC Delco Gold
Control Arm Bushing set - Energy Suspension
L/R Upper & Lower Ball Joints - AC Delco Gold

So I figure about another grand to go from moderate rebuild to complete.

Do I NEED to replace everything? No, not really. The control arms themselves I think are fine. The stabilizer bar, ditto. And the Pitman and idler arms are fine for now, but have nearly 300k miles on them, who knows when they'll start giving me trouble? I'm leaning toward option #1. Now, I have a message in to a guy I know who helped me do my shocks and springs and minimal key lift. He has a great shop and a lift we can do this on, we'd knock this out in no time, like a day. But... I also haven't talked to him in a couple of years, so I don't want to just call him up and ask him to basically do this for me while I hand him tools - which is what happened last time. He loves to wrench on things, and he has built monster rock crawlers and such, he had a Bronco he build I think that was on a magazine cover, etc. But I don't want him to think I'm just taking advantage of him. Even though I am.

That would be my ideal situation, I'm gonna ask his advice, and if he offers to have me come over and do this crap there, I'm jumping on it! He knows his stuff and it would save me ~50% even if I paid him a few hundred bucks. He doesn't need the money, at all, he just enjoys it.

So... I spend $1500 or so and hope the Pitman and idler arm remain good, or throw in an extra grand and do it all at once. An extra $1000 ain't nuthin' to sneeze at, that's for sure.

 

[Smutty j]

I have an 01 Yukon Slt. I just replaced the upper and lower ball joints on mine. One thing I‘d recommend. Plenty of penetrating oil on them before you attempt to do the job. Mine took almost 8 hrs to do just for the lower ball joints. They had never been changed since new. The rear arms were easy and not hard to do. So I hope you don’t have a bear of a time on your front as I did. But it’s doable. The Moog parts, I think are the way to go. Good luck.

 

[tRidiot]

If I had a place to do it, I'd try it myself. But, my garage doesn't have room, and my driveway is sloped. Not much other option.

I know in some bigger cities they have places you can rent shop space and I think even tools. Man, if we had that here, I'd jump on it. <sigh>

<edit> At this point, I'm just driving it. I'm mostly in town for short hauls, and I just can't MAKE myself spend $1000-2500 on the stupid thing.

 

[corvette744]

If i can make a small upgrade-dont install the stock rubber sway bar bushings.Install energy suspension end links and sway bar bushings you will be so happy you did.To prove it do all your suspension even with the stock rubber sway bar end links then go drive it for 100 miles.Remove sway bar install energy suspension poly mounts and end links same money as rubber then go drive it and you wont believe what a difference it makes in a more secure feeling on your handling.Especially loaded down with the family and lots of weight thats what i would do.This one simple upgrade will make such a big difference you wont believe it.