Expedition vs Yukon

[Baja_Bob]

They are going to hit showroom floors way earlier than I had expected. I thought it was going to be 2024 but it seems like it's going to be the second half of this year.

The introduction of the Sequoia and long wheel base Wagoneer and Grand Wagoneers will add to the supply in this segment.



Also, the extended length Wagoneer and Grand Wagoneers will have 4 additional gallons of capacity for fuel. The current versions have 26.5 gallons so 30.5 gallons will be class leading.

Wow, that'll add another $20 for a fill up nowadays, but that 6.4L doesn't get the greatest gas mileage.

 

[Polo08816]

Wow, that'll add another $20 for a fill up nowadays, but that 6.4L doesn't get the greatest gas mileage.

Yeah, but what is your time cost to need to go to the gas station 40-55 miles sooner? Or even, what is the asspain cost of needing to pull your tow vehicle and trailer into a small gas station more frequently?

Also, they will start to offer the new turbocharged inline 6 Hurricane engine series. The high output version reportedly puts out 510hp and 500 ft lbs of torque and is 1-2mpg more efficient than the outgoing engine across the board.

 

[Baja_Bob]

Yeah, but what is your time cost to need to go to the gas station 40-55 miles sooner? Or even, what is the asspain cost of needing to pull your tow vehicle and trailer into a small gas station more frequently?

Also, they will start to offer the new turbocharged inline 6 Hurricane engine series. The high output version reportedly puts out 510hp and 500 ft lbs of torque and is 1-2mpg more efficient than the outgoing engine across the board.

I had a 26 gal tank on my '19 XL, on a trip to Florida it reduced my fuel stops. Even back in 2020 it seemed expensive to fill that tank

 

[Stbentoak]

Or buy a Duramax and go 600+ miles per tank while traveling …which we do…

 

[Polo08816]

Or buy a Duramax and go 600+ miles per tank while traveling …which we do…

Diesel engines have their pitfalls. When they do have an issue, then it can be a cascading series of fails. They are also expensive and more complicated to maintain after 100k miles. It sure as heck is expensive to repair when they fail catastrophically.

Unless I'm frequently towing a trailer over 10,000lbs, I'd opt for a gas powertrain with the largest fuel tank possible.

 

[firsttimetahoe]

Or buy a Duramax and go 600+ miles per tank while traveling …which we do…

I won't lie - I live in NY and I never heard of a single person who wants to own a diesel engine car for everyday use....until I came to this site.

I actually am amazed how many people want or own a diesel engine car lol

 

[Wwes]

I won't lie - I live in NY and I never heard of a single person who wants to own a diesel engine car for everyday use....until I came to this site.

I actually am amazed how many people want or own a diesel engine car lol

I have both (5.3 V8 and 6.6 Duramax) in two trucks. Around town, hands down the 5.3 is the one to have.
The in-town mileage is very similar; on the highway, or tuggin', is when the diesel shines.

GM diesels use both DPF and DEF. DPF is the exhaust "screen" that collects soot and burns it off. Requires elevated idle and high temps. DEF is the urea-based fluid that shoots into the exhaust stream to trap soot. Must be filled periodically.

With the DPF and regen cycles, I wouldn't want to drive a diesel in town for a commuter car.

 

[firsttimetahoe]

I have both (5.3 V8 and 6.6 Duramax) in two trucks. Around town, hands down the 5.3 is the one to have.
The in-town mileage is very similar; on the highway, or tuggin', is when the diesel shines.

GM diesels use both DPF and DEF. DPF is the exhaust "screen" that collects soot and burns it off. Requires elevated idle and high temps. DEF is the urea-based fluid that shoots into the exhaust stream to trap soot. Must be filled periodically.

With the DPF and regen cycles, I wouldn't want to drive a diesel in town for a commuter car.

Interesting. Diesel by me is also now over $1.50 more a gallon than regular....and some stations don't even have diesel. Regular has been going down every week, lowest I've seen it was $3.69. Diesel still sits at $5.29

 

[R32driver]

Looks like the Yukon XL and Suburban will have another competitor in the market space sooner than expected. The Wagoneer L and Grand Wagoneer L will hit the market right around the time the Sequoia does.

The interior looks pretty nice but my goodness they have produced a FAIL on the exterior. That is one ugly duckling right there

 

[Polo08816]

The interior looks pretty nice but my goodness they have produced a FAIL on the exterior. That is one ugly duckling right there

I agree. But I've also come to realize that looks are more subjective than anything else.

Either way, the injection of three new competitors to GM since late 2021 will eventually affect GM:
- 2023 Wagoneer L/Grand Wagoneer L
- 2023 Toyota Sequioa
- 2022 Ford Expedition with the updated interior since deliveries started in Q2 of 2022

 

[WalleyeMikeIII]

Interesting. Diesel by me is also now over $1.50 more a gallon than regular....and some stations don't even have diesel. Regular has been going down every week, lowest I've seen it was $3.69. Diesel still sits at $5.29

Right, but if you get the 6.2 Gasser...the comparison is Diesel vs. Premium, which by me is a horse race...so Diesel may be a good option for some.
I went gasser for 2 reasons: Smile factor when putting foot in it and the Climate I live in and my needs for short trips in sub zero temps for 4 months of the year. If I lived south, I would have picked the Baby Duramax all day.

 

[firsttimetahoe]

I agree. But I've also come to realize that looks are more subjective than anything else.

Either way, the injection of three new competitors to GM since late 2021 will eventually affect GM:
- 2023 Wagoneer L/Grand Wagoneer L
- 2023 Toyota Sequioa
- 2022 Ford Expedition with the updated interior since deliveries started in Q2 of 2022

I don't see it having that much of an impact to be honest.

GM is making so much money as it is, producing the numbers of Tahoes & Yukons they are now. Do you think they'll want to ramp up production even more now that there is more competition? That will have an adverse effect on the quality of their cars.

Sure they may lose a customer who's not willing to wait 3+ months if there are continued inventory issues, but someone else will take their spot and buy the car once it is produced.
The Wagoneer's are expensive. They regular ones cost $75k by me & the Grand Wagoneer are starting over $100k. I just don't see anyone who would spend as much as a Denali or Escalade on a Wagoneer.....in this category of cars.

Toyota is Toyota. People typically buy Toyota's because they're cheaper and last long. Does Toyota think they're going to convince people it's worth paying $70k+ for their brand? I don't see it. Sure the new model looks a lot nicer and is more modern....but at the end of the day the brand still has a major play.

As far as Ford goes...I think the Expedition will chip away the most. But GM has always owned this market over them. I don't see it changing

 

[firsttimetahoe]

Right, but if you get the 6.2 Gasser...the comparison is Diesel vs. Premium, which by me is a horse race...so Diesel may be a good option for some.
I went gasser for 2 reasons: Smile factor when putting foot in it and the Climate I live in and my needs for short trips in sub zero temps for 4 months of the year. If I lived south, I would have picked the Baby Duramax all day.

Like I mentioned, I live in NY and my highway miles aren't like a traditional highway lol. If I had a 6.2 for the area I drive in....I'll be lucky to be getting 10-12 miles per gallon lol

 

[Polo08816]

Right, but if you get the 6.2 Gasser...the comparison is Diesel vs. Premium, which by me is a horse race...so Diesel may be a good option for some.
I went gasser for 2 reasons: Smile factor when putting foot in it and the Climate I live in and my needs for short trips in sub zero temps for 4 months of the year. If I lived south, I would have picked the Baby Duramax all day.

I don't think I'd ever choose diesel unless it was a 1 ton HD pickup truck that I anticipate towing a > 10,000lbs enclosed car trailer/toy hauler. I would want the diesel primary due to its exhaust braking. If there was some type of hybrid powertrain gas 1 ton HD, I would seriously consider it if it were not a gimmick and actually functional in a similar way to a diesel powertrain.

 

[Polo08816]

I don't see it having that much of an impact to be honest.

GM is making so much money as it is, producing the numbers of Tahoes & Yukons they are now. Do you think they'll want to ramp up production even more now that there is more competition? That will have an adverse effect on the quality of their cars.

Sure they may lose a customer who's not willing to wait 3+ months if there are continued inventory issues, but someone else will take their spot and buy the car once it is produced.
The Wagoneer's are expensive. They regular ones cost $75k by me & the Grand Wagoneer are starting over $100k. I just don't see anyone who would spend as much as a Denali or Escalade on a Wagoneer.....in this category of cars.

Toyota is Toyota. People typically buy Toyota's because they're cheaper and last long. Does Toyota think they're going to convince people it's worth paying $70k+ for their brand? I don't see it. Sure the new model looks a lot nicer and is more modern....but at the end of the day the brand still has a major play.

As far as Ford goes...I think the Expedition will chip away the most. But GM has always owned this market over them. I don't see it changing

I think GM will have to acquiesce and go back to the pre-covid model of selling cars for these full size SUVs depending upon the strategy of Ford, Toyota, and Stellantis.

I mean, sure, GM would like to keep the business model it has in place during the COVID times because it never really had competitors in this segment in late 2021. And of course, if you're the sole source supplier for a segment, you should be turning significant profits.

But that's changing and GM will have to adapt. And if one of these other competitors has the production capacity to start having retail inventory on dealer lots for consumers to test drive, etc., will your non-GM brand loyal customer actually buy a vehicle they can never put their hands on and test drive? My guess is no and they would opt for the car they can try out in person. And if you don't have the ability to capture customers from your competitors like they are doing to you, you will eventually suffer those consequences. Ford and GM had brands that experienced this.

Unless GM is committed to significantly increasing its production capacity/volume, I see the GM products continuing to become a smaller % of total sales in the segment as its competitors come online.

Also, Grand Wagoneers can sticker for over 100k, but you can factory order one at Koons Vienna for 6% under invoice so that's under $80,000 which is in-line with its competitors like the Yukon Denali.

 

[Baja_Bob]

Diesel engines have their pitfalls. When they do have an issue, then it can be a cascading series of fails. They are also expensive and more complicated to maintain after 100k miles. It sure as heck is expensive to repair when they fail catastrophically.

A friend of mine had to replace one of the fuel pumps on a 6.6L duramax, cost him over $1400.

 

[R32driver]

Nissan/Infinity also have a large suv so must account for some of the sales too. But lets face it people are really obsessed with how they look/how people perceive you. You pull up in a new escalade or denali and the other people that care about that kind of thing take notice. You pull up in a toyota or nissan and nobody cares. It's really quite pathetic but very much true. That's what keeps GM on top, they are known as the most luxurious vehicles America has to offer and that's what many people want to drive. Vehicles are status symbols

 

[Polo08816]

A friend of mine had to replace one of the fuel pumps on a 6.6L duramax, cost him over $1400.

Wait until he experiences a major fail on an LML. It'll cost him north of $10k to fix when that fuel system grenades itself.

 

[Polo08816]

Nissan/Infinity also have a large suv so must account for some of the sales too. But lets face it people are really obsessed with how they look/how people perceive you. You pull up in a new escalade or denali and the other people that care about that kind of thing take notice. You pull up in a toyota or nissan and nobody cares. It's really quite pathetic but very much true. That's what keeps GM on top, they are known as the most luxurious vehicles America has to offer and that's what many people want to drive. Vehicles are status symbols

That brand might as well be dead. It's like Saturn or Pontiac.

 

[firsttimetahoe]

I think GM will have to acquiesce and go back to the pre-covid model of selling cars for these full size SUVs depending upon the strategy of Ford, Toyota, and Stellantis.

I mean, sure, GM would like to keep the business model it has in place during the COVID times because it never really had competitors in this segment in late 2021. And of course, if you're the sole source supplier for a segment, you should be turning significant profits.

But that's changing and GM will have to adapt. And if one of these other competitors has the production capacity to start having retail inventory on dealer lots for consumers to test drive, etc., will your non-GM brand loyal customer actually buy a vehicle they can never put their hands on and test drive? My guess is no and they would opt for the car they can try out in person. And if you don't have the ability to capture customers from your competitors like they are doing to you, you will eventually suffer those consequences. Ford and GM had brands that experienced this.

Unless GM is committed to significantly increasing its production capacity/volume, I see the GM products continuing to become a smaller % of total sales in the segment as its competitors come online.

Also, Grand Wagoneers can sticker for over 100k, but you can factory order one at Koons Vienna for 6% under invoice so that's under $80,000 which is in-line with its competitors like the Yukon Denali.

GM sold more Tahoes in the USA in 2021 then any year prior

2021 was GM's 3rd best year in terms of Yukon's sold. 2022 they're on pace to sell 84k, which is 10k more cars than their best years (2018 & 2019)

This is during an industry wide shortage of vehicles. Where the majority of people are paying over MSRP.

Your go to Koons Vienna to go buy a Wagoneer at XYZ price doesn't apply to 95% of the people who purchase cars. People shop within their market. Very few go out of state and if they do, its to a neighboring state. It is rare for your local market to have dealers who are all over the place....they typically are pretty competitive. Sure there usually is one whos the cheapest or the favorite and one dealer who's absurdly expensive...but they're both still selling cars.