4T65-E Transmission Clunk, B Platform Lucerne (impala)

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Matthew Jeschke

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I have the 3800cc w/ 4T65-E transmission. It's a 2006 Buick Lucerne (same as impala). This issue has been going on for some time. I always attributed it to a goofy Transmission control algorithm but think it might be more now.

The transmission develops a very harsh shift after driving at slow speeds. Most always can be remedied by stopping car shutting off (letting car get to sleep mode). Then restarting and driving away. Shifts smooth as silk then.

Car has 157,000 miles on it, original owner, transmission serviced like clockwork most recently at 150,000 miles. Fluid looked perfect. Although the clunk issue seems to be a bit more persistent now. Videos below:

Link to Clunk Video:
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1xEFLS2Dzjvtd4d7adQDXiAPDw2POtwrN/view?usp=sharing

Link to restart video (issue gone):
https://drive.google.com/file/d/18NbzNGaGmflW_LCR9JMy7ScDZNlsxZfx/view?usp=sharing

I have a theory as to what this is, but want to get your opinion before I tear things apart. Thanks!
 
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Matthew Jeschke

Matthew Jeschke

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The bang is from too much pressure. The question then is, why? Do you have access to a Tech2 Matthew? It would be nice to see what the computer is seeing. Any transmission trouble codes?

http://www.tripleedgeperformance.com/4T65E-Common-Problems.html

I need to get a better scan tool. I'll have to see if I can get access to one of those... but I learned this is a common issue to 4T65E transmission. It's tuned horribly... shifts are too soft which wears clutches faster and puts transmission into limp mode, which is what I had suspected. It's also possible a stuck main line pressure solenoid. I see many people change that and the accumlator springs. Sorry if I snd ignorant I don't know the exact terminology as I don't work on transmission much more than basic service.

I'm going to have to find a tech 2 or scanner that reads more of the computers.
 
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Matthew Jeschke

Matthew Jeschke

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Wow just looked at your link... SUPER helpful. I always suspected this transmission was a POS lol Especially the Buick tuning with super soft shifts. Not 100% sure but think it adapts to current driving conditions... then shifts accordingly. However, my guess is sometimes it adapts such that it puts transmission in limp mode (the hard shifts). I don't know why it simply wouldn't just shift the same all the time, a nice confident shift, not some spongy crappy old lady shift lol
 

swathdiver

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Mine is tuned (6L80) and went soft after the Y-pipe and cats were replaced. Going to have BlackBear send an update once the datalog gets done.
 

UrbanSuburban

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Sorry I'm a little late on this, my brother has the same vehicle and year, only about 90k miles though, the clutch packs are designed for the slippage in order to get the 'smooth' shifts. It also does adapt. As Swath as mentioned , a tech2 or similar scan tool will enable you to get to the bottom of the problem, look for the time in ms that the trans shifts gears, the longer it takes the higher the pressure is needed until no more pressure can be applied. I have rebuilt four of these, and includes the Regal. The 4T60 series was always a great transmission until it fails, which is to say without much warning. Your tranny may be at that stage already, you already have the miles for it. One hint though, if you do have tranny codes, the check engine light should be on as limp home mode will light it and it does effect the emissions. No lights then probably a mechanical issue within. Good luck
 
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Matthew Jeschke

Matthew Jeschke

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Sorry I'm a little late on this, my brother has the same vehicle and year, only about 90k miles though, the clutch packs are designed for the slippage in order to get the 'smooth' shifts. It also does adapt. As Swath as mentioned , a tech2 or similar scan tool will enable you to get to the bottom of the problem, look for the time in ms that the trans shifts gears, the longer it takes the higher the pressure is needed until no more pressure can be applied. I have rebuilt four of these, and includes the Regal. The 4T60 series was always a great transmission until it fails, which is to say without much warning. Your tranny may be at that stage already, you already have the miles for it. One hint though, if you do have tranny codes, the check engine light should be on as limp home mode will light it and it does effect the emissions. No lights then probably a mechanical issue within. Good luck

Thanks much, I'm also thinking it's time to have a few $$ in the bank for a rebuilt 4T60E :/ 1, Curious are they hard to rebuild? I'd love to try and rebuild one from scrapyard. 2, And when clutches fail, is it possible to drive home or do they simply stop moving all together? Thanks!

PS. I've rebuilt a SBC, LT1. And done above everything else imaginable on cars / trucks minus a transmission rebuild :| Would love experience.
 

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Rebuilding your own for the experience is a great idea, its what led me to think about rebuilding my dads 96 buick regal 4t60 e, that and being told by Aamco that it would cost 3500 dollars to rebuild. A couple of thoughts tho if you are thinking that way. Make sure that you have a good jack to put the old one on, its very heavy. When you rebuild ensure a surgical cleanlness to your area, dirt and trans do not go along very well. Flush your lines or replace them if they are rusty, make sure the rebuild kit is the proper one. You can also get some parts upgraded at the same time. Replace the Torque Converter as well. A complete rebuild should not cost you more than 600 dollars, or you can go to Rock auto and get a complete build and install that. Keep the old core and rebuild it or send it back to get the credit. I know lots of people who think nothing of rebuilding a chevy 350 but will shy away from transmissions. Goodluck with it, keep posting as to what you want to do and any advice I and the rest can shoot their way to you.
 
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Matthew Jeschke

Matthew Jeschke

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Rebuilding your own for the experience is a great idea, its what led me to think about rebuilding my dads 96 buick regal 4t60 e, that and being told by Aamco that it would cost 3500 dollars to rebuild. A couple of thoughts tho if you are thinking that way. Make sure that you have a good jack to put the old one on, its very heavy. When you rebuild ensure a surgical cleanlness to your area, dirt and trans do not go along very well. Flush your lines or replace them if they are rusty, make sure the rebuild kit is the proper one. You can also get some parts upgraded at the same time. Replace the Torque Converter as well. A complete rebuild should not cost you more than 600 dollars, or you can go to Rock auto and get a complete build and install that. Keep the old core and rebuild it or send it back to get the credit. I know lots of people who think nothing of rebuilding a chevy 350 but will shy away from transmissions. Goodluck with it, keep posting as to what you want to do and any advice I and the rest can shoot their way to you.

Awesome :) Ideally I'd like to pickup a 4t65e from junk yard. I'd rebuild it as I drive the Buick (it still runs just I'm afraid clutches are towards end of life). I am with you on cleanliness. I may even make a corner with plastic curtain to keep cleaner yet. My biggest concern is though, I don't have a rebuild guide with the torque specs and all that. Do they make a 4t65e rebuild guide? I think with a book I should be fine.
 

UrbanSuburban

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good call on the wrecked model, you just have to ensure its the same. As far as building it, YouTube has great videos by trannyshops on the building of this tranny. Do a search. As far as a guide, Alldata is usually very good as the info is there and not too costly. Strangely GM does not include in the official Ship manual the trans rebuild sections. Only the diagnostics. You would need to if you want the Official GM manual, get what is known as a TURM, or Transmission Unit Repair Manual, it contains all the Trannys that GM produced. The Alldata will have that material as well. This wouild include the torque specs.
 
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Matthew Jeschke

Matthew Jeschke

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good call on the wrecked model, you just have to ensure its the same. As far as building it, YouTube has great videos by trannyshops on the building of this tranny. Do a search. As far as a guide, Alldata is usually very good as the info is there and not too costly. Strangely GM does not include in the official Ship manual the trans rebuild sections. Only the diagnostics. You would need to if you want the Official GM manual, get what is known as a TURM, or Transmission Unit Repair Manual, it contains all the Trannys that GM produced. The Alldata will have that material as well. This wouild include the torque specs.

I'm watching some videos here.. Curious there are different gear configurations for the 4T65E. How do I ensure I have a similarly configured transmission when I buy one from the junk yard? Do you know how to read the specs... or do I simply go off model and options for car I pull tranny from?
 

UrbanSuburban

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This is where things get tricky, its one of the reasons that tranny shops would rather build your old one than go to the headache of drilling down.
Ok, so you know in the glovebox or on the sparetire cover in the trunk will be the RPO code sticker. This will allow you to get what RPO code your trans is. On the trans itself, on a boss on the side will be the rest of the info, a bunch of numbers and letters that will tell you what shift etc the trans was made. You will need an RPO code reader and the alldata trans section to decipher it. Once you do that then you are good to go. As far as what gear ratio then the vehicle it came from should give that info, the wrecker should be able to tell you as you are going to have to tell them what vehicle this will be going into. You may be finding that you are going to need special tools, you really don't , the only one you will need is a very long needle nosed plier to remove the lockrings deep into the tranny. You will also need Vaseline to hold your checkballs in place. There is a product called transgel and its blue to separate it from the red but Vaseline will do fine. Hope this helps
 

CountryBoy19

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Awesome :) Ideally I'd like to pickup a 4t65e from junk yard. I'd rebuild it as I drive the Buick (it still runs just I'm afraid clutches are towards end of life). I am with you on cleanliness. I may even make a corner with plastic curtain to keep cleaner yet. My biggest concern is though, I don't have a rebuild guide with the torque specs and all that. Do they make a 4t65e rebuild guide? I think with a book I should be fine.
Google atsg 4t65e service manual pdf.... you can buy one to be proper but there are free downloads floating around. .. I rebuilt my 4t65e in the car... you can get everything except the torque converter and differential by lowering the cradle and pulling driver wheel/hub/strut...
 
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Matthew Jeschke

Matthew Jeschke

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Google atsg 4t65e service manual pdf.... you can buy one to be proper but there are free downloads floating around. .. I rebuilt my 4t65e in the car... you can get everything except the torque converter and differential by lowering the cradle and pulling driver wheel/hub/strut...

You da man. I have just been babying my tranny a LOT... If it persists I will drop the service pan and get the bits I can do under there... If that doesn't work, I'm def going to try a rebuild w/o dropping it like you said... Do you have lift? How did you get under there?


I hope it keeps running but I'm thinking this isn't a 300,000 mile car or transmission at least lol I'm hoping I can get 200k... My truck has 225k and is running strong.
 

CountryBoy19

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You da man. I have just been babying my tranny a LOT... If it persists I will drop the service pan and get the bits I can do under there... If that doesn't work, I'm def going to try a rebuild w/o dropping it like you said... Do you have lift? How did you get under there?


I hope it keeps running but I'm thinking this isn't a 300,000 mile car or transmission at least lol I'm hoping I can get 200k... My truck has 225k and is running strong.
I put my car up on blocks. I have some 10x12x14 wood blocks that I set up on the 14" dimension, with a 4x6 about 4 feet long laying across them. That was all placed on the main structural beams built into the unibody just behind the engine-cradle. This puts the front end about 16" higher than normal. The only thing you have to work underneath to perform is the pan/filter drop and possibly add a couple upgrade parts in the pan (IIRC there are 2 accumulators in the pan if you were to add shift-kits to them). The rest of the work will be done from the driver-side wheel well. Unlike a longitudinal transmission, the transverse transmissions have the valve-body and all the goods inside the end-cover which comes off the driver-side of the transmission. You pop the driver wheel assembly out including the strut, lower the cradle down to get more clearance, loosen all the bolts on the end-cover, then play a jenga game to get it out. You'll be looking at the valve-body. Removing the valve body will get you access to the clutches.

Note: Do LOTS of research on common problems with these and what to look for. The reason I did mine was my 4th clutch hub shaft stripped the splines (common problem pre-03). I didn't have any other options so I was forced to drive it to work for the next 4 days like that. Amazingly, the day before I stopped driving it started experiencing problems associate with the worn input clutch piston. I had no idea it was a problem so I had no idea to look at or inspect the piston for wear. Thankfully that problem arose and I got a reman input piston 2-day shipped so I could complete the in-car rebuild that weekend. See here for what I'm talking about, I suggest you look through a lot of his pages of common problems. He's a 4T65E guru, he answers the phone, and his parts are GTG if you choose to buy from him. http://tripleedgeperformance.com/No-Forward-Cold.html

Whatever you do, take your time and be very, very thorough. I thought I was thorough but I was rushed, it was my only wheels and I did it over a weekend in my driveway. Sunday night it was getting dark on my as I finished up. I put the last few parts in the tranny by head-lamp. I forgot to put the chain splash deflector thing in. I set in on top of my blocks wrapped in a rag so I wouldn't forget it; it was RIGHT there. But by the time I got to that it was dark and that was out of view because my headlamp was shining at the transmission, not the block it was sitting on. So I got to pull the end-cover again to put that in... got it all buttoned up and took it for a test-drive at midnight... Limp mode.... son-of-a-*****... I was pissed... but I had to have it done so I could go to work in the morning. It was throwing a solenoid circuit failure code... I drop the cradle and check all the solenoid connectors... apparently I didn't get one of the clicked all the way on... simple problem, 5 hrs to fix it. By the time I got it all back together it was time to leave for work and I hadn't slept yet... I called in sick. Thinking back, I should have just stopped when it got dark because I was starting to get rushed and frustrated, and that's NO time to be working on something so critical. Call me a retard, amateur, whatever, I know I made stupid mistakes, but I didn't plan to. I'm usually very thorough when it comes to things like that but lack of sleep, frustration, and a bit of anxiety about getting the job done and it's easy to make silly mistakes like that. Just trying to save somebody else from repeating mine.

ETA, one more VERY VERY IMPORTANT thing. DO NOT torque the bottom 4 end-cover bolts to the spec listed in the service manuals. It's a known weak point, google it. 99% of people that are going to have problems have the cover crack immediately so they know there is a problem. I was the unlucky 1%. I rebuilt it, drove around a couple thousand miles, then set out on a cross-country road trip (travel for work). I drove all the way from Indiana to New York, drove around New York for a week, then got 80% of the way back to Indiana (very lucky I made it that far) and transmission started slipping (I had put at least 4k miles on it since rebuild at this point). I pulled off at the next exit and tranny fluid is running out the cover in a steady stream. I jack it up, pull the wheel, crawl under and I can see the crack right around the bolt hole. It was after that happened that I found out it's "common knowledge" that you don't torque those bolts to the spec listed in the manual. F*** Me... $40 for an end-cover on ebay, already pulled and cleaned, it's just the 5 hrs labor to jack it up, lower the cradle and swap the covers out.

This was all a few years ago. IIRC it was around 228k miles when I did that and I just rolled over 250k miles last week.


Small tid-bit, if you aren't familiar with GM transmission lingo. The first number is the number of speeds (4), the letter is transverse (front-wheel drive) vs longitudinal (rear-wheel drive), the next 2-digits is the torque rating (number value is arbitrary I believe), and an E at the end indicates electronic controls. IE, 4T65E is 4-speed, transverse, 65 torque rating, electronic controls. The thing that I'm not sure of is if torque ratings can be compared between T & L transmissions. IE, your car with a 4T65E has less torque and power than a Yukon with a 4L60E... is that why the 4L60E's have issues?
 
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CountryBoy19

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I should also note there may be a few specialty tools you'll need. Some you can get by without, but some are a must. IMHO, the special expanders & squeezers for the Teflon sealing rings are a must but you may have to modify them to get to them work for the oil-pump shaft when doing an in-car repair/rebuild. I made some myself (I have a machine-shop at home), I'll see if I can find them. If so, I can send them to you; it may save you a little coin.
 
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Matthew Jeschke

Matthew Jeschke

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I should also note there may be a few specialty tools you'll need. Some you can get by without, but some are a must. IMHO, the special expanders & squeezers for the Teflon sealing rings are a must but you may have to modify them to get to them work for the oil-pump shaft when doing an in-car repair/rebuild. I made some myself (I have a machine-shop at home), I'll see if I can find them. If so, I can send them to you; it may save you a little coin.
You are awesome. My tranny seems to be going good right now. Thank god but my guess the writing is in the wall. It will need rebuilt in the next couple years. I have been watching rebuild videos and saw the service cover could be accessed from driver side. Never thought of doing that there :|

Prob my plan of attack would be to replace / rebuild everything under the service pan first, next time i change tranny fluid.

I had thought for aome reason there is a clutch pack inside the tranny you cannot get to without taking the tranny out?

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Matthew Jeschke

Matthew Jeschke

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Ug... It's starting to shift like crap again. I think it's going to go much sooner than I'd wished. I'm going to order the transgo kit, all the soliniods and do the work under the service pan first.

Curious I've been searching for the soliniods however, it's tricky as I cannot figure out which ones it takes. It seems there multiple versions? Do they have to go off my car VIN number?
 

sonic_the_hedgeh

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Ug... It's starting to shift like crap again. I think it's going to go much sooner than I'd wished. I'm going to order the transgo kit, all the soliniods and do the work under the service pan first.

Curious I've been searching for the soliniods however, it's tricky as I cannot figure out which ones it takes. It seems there multiple versions? Do they have to go off my car VIN number?
There is a kit on Amazon. It services 4L60E as well as the 4L65E which I have in my 04 denali. Mine is slipping I have to let off the gas for it to shift.

I checked and saw on a forum quite a few people recommend it.

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