Expedition vs Yukon

[firsttimetahoe]

Then there's something wrong with that particular Jeep dealer. Or maybe the NY metro area market is not representative of the rest of the US.

What is exactly wrong with that dealer?

 

[todayusay]

The Koon's around the country won't have inventory simply because they are discounting every vehicle they sell thousands more than anyone probably within a 300-400 radius...off the cuff there are at least 8-10 of these types of FCA dealerships across the country

FCA may be able to move some the wagoneers but I have had similar experiences in that if I wanted to find a Wagoneer today, it may not be exactly what I want but I could be driving one by this evening if I wanted to...Can't really say the same for a tahoe/yukon

Local(ish) dealer to me was doing the whole end of the month advertising a couple weeks of ago on the radio and they said they had a Wagoneer for $2k off - that day only...ha. Almost 3 weeks later they still have it on their website with the discounted price.

The real test will be to check back in on this topic in June and see what the inventory at the dealers looks like then

I stopped and looked at one at a rural dealership about a month ago, think it was $74K?, 2WD ...was one of about 5 new vehicles on their lot...and although the interior seemed nice, in person it looked like the big brother to a Ford Flex...

 

[firsttimetahoe]

The Koon's around the country won't have inventory simply because they are discounting every vehicle they sell thousands more than anyone probably within a 300-400 radius...off the cuff there are at least 8-10 of these types of FCA dealerships across the country

FCA may be able to move some the wagoneers but I have had similar experiences in that if I wanted to find a Wagoneer today, it may not be exactly what I want but I could be driving one by this evening if I wanted to...Can't really say the same for a tahoe/yukon

Local(ish) dealer to me was doing the whole end of the month advertising a couple weeks of ago on the radio and they said they had a Wagoneer for $2k off - that day only...ha. Almost 3 weeks later they still have it on their website with the discounted price.

The real test will be to check back in on this topic in June and see what the inventory at the dealers looks like then


View attachment 368288



I stopped and looked at one at a rural dealership about a month ago, think it was $74K?, 2WD ...was one of about 5 new vehicles on their lot...and although the interior seemed nice, in person it looked like the big brother to a Ford Flex...

Imagine having to discount your BRAND NEW lineup on day 1 to sell cars, in order to compete with a company who's selling their comparable car hand over fist over MSRP and making consumers wait months for delivery?

GM doesn't even sell that many ESVs. Nor do they sell that many Suburban's or Yukon XL versus Tahoe and regular Yukon. So what is Jeep's next decision, lets make the cars even bigger? Yeah, because as if a Tahoe or Yukon isn't enough room lol.

Again...i'll walk back everything and apologize if the Grand Wagoneer catches on and just destroys it in sales. But its not happening.

 

[Polo08816]

The Koon's around the country won't have inventory simply because they are discounting every vehicle they sell thousands more than anyone probably within a 300-400 radius...off the cuff there are at least 8-10 of these types of FCA dealerships across the country

FCA may be able to move some the wagoneers but I have had similar experiences in that if I wanted to find a Wagoneer today, it may not be exactly what I want but I could be driving one by this evening if I wanted to...Can't really say the same for a tahoe/yukon

Local(ish) dealer to me was doing the whole end of the month advertising a couple weeks of ago on the radio and they said they had a Wagoneer for $2k off - that day only...ha. Almost 3 weeks later they still have it on their website with the discounted price.

The real test will be to check back in on this topic in June and see what the inventory at the dealers looks like then


View attachment 368288



I stopped and looked at one at a rural dealership about a month ago, think it was $74K?, 2WD ...was one of about 5 new vehicles on their lot...and although the interior seemed nice, in person it looked like the big brother to a Ford Flex...

I've started to see more and more Wagoneers/Grand Wagoneers in the DC metro area as well as Toyota Tundras.

Imagine having to discount your BRAND NEW lineup on day 1 to sell cars, in order to compete with a company who's selling their comparable car hand over fist over MSRP and making consumers wait months for delivery?

GM doesn't even sell that many ESVs. Nor do they sell that many Suburban's or Yukon XL versus Tahoe and regular Yukon. So what is Jeep's next decision, lets make the cars even bigger? Yeah, because as if a Tahoe or Yukon isn't enough room lol.

Again...i'll walk back everything and apologize if the Grand Wagoneer catches on and just destroys it in sales. But its not happening.

At the end of the day, profit would be reflected closer to market selling price minus cost to produce per unit. Since I see Stellantis vehicles selling at a greater discount compared to GM vehicles, suspect that the holdback amount per vehicle for the dealer is higher than GM.

It's about a 1 to 2 split between Suburbans and Tahoes.

But Tahoes/Yukons can be cross-shopped with European and Asian manufacturers alternatives. Suburbans/Yukon XLs cannot. And the only manufacturer that is really in a position to add to the segment is Toyota if they decide to use the TNGA-F platform for the Tundra/Sequoia to make an extended wheel base Sequoia. If GM, Ford, and Stellantis leave something on the table for market capture, then maybe Toyota will take advantage of that. I think that would be 2024 at the earliest if it happens.

 

[firsttimetahoe]

At the end of the day, profit would be reflected closer to market selling price minus cost to produce per unit.

Profit for who? Don’t Manufacturers sell to dealers at the Invoice Price, which obviously is more than what it costs them to produce the car? Isn't there profit already booked once they sell the cars to the dealer? At that point, it’s irrelevant to the manufacturer what a dealer prices the car at - they just need them fo keep buying cars.

Dealers make profit selling a car (excluding what they make in financing, warranty’s, etc) by selling above invoice, which is what they buy the car from the manufacturer at. MSRP is above invoice. They’re recommended to sell at MSRP. But whatever markup or discount they apply is irrelevant to the profit of the manufacturer.

Or that’s at least what I thought the process was like.

 

[Polo08816]

Profit for who? Don’t Manufacturers sell to dealers at the Invoice Price, which obviously is more than what it costs them to produce the car? Isn't there profit already booked once they sell the cars to the dealer? At that point, it’s irrelevant to the manufacturer what a dealer prices the car at - they just need them fo keep buying cars.

Dealers make profit selling a car (excluding what they make in financing, warranty’s, etc) by selling above invoice, which is what they buy the car from the manufacturer at. MSRP is above invoice. They’re recommended to sell at MSRP. But whatever markup or discount they apply is irrelevant to the profit of the manufacturer.

Or that’s at least what I thought the process was like.

So there's a holdback amount which is usually dependent on the sales volume of the dealer.

The holdback amount is probably why a dealer like Koons Vienna can advertise at 6% under invoice and still make a profit on each unit sold.

 

[firsttimetahoe]

So there's a holdback amount which is usually dependent on the sales volume of the dealer.

The holdback amount is probably why a dealer like Koons Vienna can advertise at 6% under invoice and still make a profit on each unit sold.

Dealers make the majority of their money selling cars on securing financing and selling extended warranties/service contracts and other add-ons. And then obviously they make a ton from repairs dept.

Their profits don’t come from selling the actual car in terms of what they pay minus what they sell it for. If that was the case, they’d be out of business selling below invoice

 

[Polo08816]

Dealers make the majority of their money selling cars on securing financing and selling extended warranties/service contracts and other add-ons. And then obviously they make a ton from repairs dept.

Their profits don’t come from selling the actual car in terms of what they pay minus what they sell it for. If that was the case, they’d be out of business selling below invoice

That further proves my point. They don't make a practice of selling vehicles at a loss.

 

[firsttimetahoe]

That further proves my point. They don't make a practice of selling vehicles at a loss.

Prove you point how?

I’m genuinely confused.

In a time where car dealers are adding to MSRP to reap the high demand and low inventory environment …Jeep dealers already have to sell a brand new lineup of luxury vehicles below MSRP to get these off their lots. Why are people willing to pay more for a Tahoe/Yukon and Escalade but less for a Wagoneer?

Dealers will focus on selling cars and getting an inventory that they can profit from the most. Most dealers aren’t going to stock their lot full of cars they have to discount more than any other model, if they can sell other models more easily and clearer to MSRP in normal times. Eventually they’ll have a price point where it no longer makes sense for them to sell these cars. Unless you tell me that a dealer still makes a profit selling a Grand Wagonneer for $75k….then I don’t see them selling them in volumes you project

 

[Polo08816]

Prove you point how?

I’m genuinely confused.

In a time where car dealers are adding to MSRP to reap the high demand and low inventory environment …Jeep dealers already have to sell a brand new lineup of luxury vehicles below MSRP to get these off their lots. Why are people willing to pay more for a Tahoe/Yukon and Escalade but less for a Wagoneer?

Dealers will focus on selling cars and getting an inventory that they can profit from the most. Most dealers aren’t going to stock their lot full of cars they have to discount more than any other model, if they can sell other models more easily and clearer to MSRP in normal times. Eventually they’ll have a price point where it no longer makes sense for them to sell these cars. Unless you tell me that a dealer still makes a profit selling a Grand Wagonneer for $75k….then I don’t see them selling them in volumes you project

Stellantis isn't the only one with that strategy. Ford does it as well. There are quite a few forum dealers that will do anywhere from 2-5% below invoice pricing for Fords. Like Stellantis, Ford prices their vehicles with a higher MSRP. The actual market selling price is about equal to comparable GM products.

Manufacturers usually change their holdback to make sure dealers make some profit and/or provide incentives to the retail customer.

 

[StephenPT]

Stellantis isn't the only one with that strategy. Ford does it as well. There are quite a few forum dealers that will do anywhere from 2-5% below invoice pricing for Fords. Like Stellantis, Ford prices their vehicles with a higher MSRP. The actual market selling price is about equal to comparable GM products.

Manufacturers usually change their holdback to make sure dealers make some profit and/or provide incentives to the retail customer.

This is a good point. We briefly cross-shopped the Expedition Max and always found the Ford MSRP to be at a minimum ~$3K more than the Yukon XL. Even more compared to the Suburban. Ford has been running numerous incentives and I believe all dealers must accept X-Plan pricing (equivalent to GM Supplier Discount). After the Ford incentives you end up with a more competitive price to GM MSRP.

 

[firsttimetahoe]

Stellantis isn't the only one with that strategy. Ford does it as well. There are quite a few forum dealers that will do anywhere from 2-5% below invoice pricing for Fords. Like Stellantis, Ford prices their vehicles with a higher MSRP. The actual market selling price is about equal to comparable GM products.

Manufacturers usually change their holdback to make sure dealers make some profit and/or provide incentives to the retail customer.

I get what you're saying now.

But that sounds horrific for the Wagoneer (and especially the Grand Wagoneer) because they're grossly overpriced.

Like I said....MSRP is $14k cheaper for an Escalade versus a Grand Wagoneer.

Meanwhile you have people paying $25k over MSRP for a Escalade and they're already advertising Grand Waggoneers under MSRP.

Good Luck Stellantis. BTW - i don't know about you but I;ve never heard someone say the Suburban or a Tahoe XL or a Escalade ESV is too small....so I have no clue what market they're trying to capture making it even bigger lol

 

[89Suburban]

A Wagoneer bites the dust.

Damn cowboy! One hand on the wheel, no seatbelt, dodging bullets! Damn!! Plus he nails the fugger, hell yeah!

 

[89Suburban]

These things look worse as they stretch them out. And for that extra room expect probably another $4-5k over the current wagoner MSRP.

These things will be discontinued after 2024. I’m calling it

I saw a white one today at the supermarket. I definitely had to do a double take. And it definitely stands out. I didn't have a chance to get a pic of it though.

 

[Polo08816]

This is a good point. We briefly cross-shopped the Expedition Max and always found the Ford MSRP to be at a minimum ~$3K more than the Yukon XL. Even more compared to the Suburban. Ford has been running numerous incentives and I believe all dealers must accept X-Plan pricing (equivalent to GM Supplier Discount). After the Ford incentives you end up with a more competitive price to GM MSRP.

I get what you're saying now.

But that sounds horrific for the Wagoneer (and especially the Grand Wagoneer) because they're grossly overpriced.

Like I said....MSRP is $14k cheaper for an Escalade versus a Grand Wagoneer.

Meanwhile you have people paying $25k over MSRP for a Escalade and they're already advertising Grand Waggoneers under MSRP.

Good Luck Stellantis. BTW - i don't know about you but I;ve never heard someone say the Suburban or a Tahoe XL or a Escalade ESV is too small....so I have no clue what market they're trying to capture making it even bigger lol

If you get a 2WD Escalade Luxury, MSRP is about $14k below a base Grand Wagoneer Series I which cannot be configured in 2WD form. But if you need a more common trim such as the 4WD Premium Luxury or 4WD Sport, the MSRP is over the MSRP of the GW Series 1. In that case, your actual market selling prices of the GW is lower than the Escalade.

 

[firsttimetahoe]

If you get a 2WD Escalade Luxury, MSRP is about $14k below a base Grand Wagoneer Series I which cannot be configured in 2WD form. But if you need a more common trim such as the 4WD Premium Luxury or 4WD Sport, the MSRP is over the MSRP of the GW Series 1. In that case, your actual market selling prices of the GW is lower than the Escalade.

Sorry - 4WD is 8k cheaper.

But now you're talking upgrading trims. People who spend this type of coin on a vehicle aren't going to nickel and dime because they'll rather lose features they may want because they're cap price is $90k. At that point, I want almost everything minus the stupid stuff.

Again...its a no brainer to me. It'll be a no brainer to most people.

If GM decided to put all their efforts to producing as many escaldes as possible so they can meet every order quickly...no one would buy a Grand Wagoneer.

 

[Polo08816]

Sorry - 4WD is 8k cheaper.

But now you're talking upgrading trims. People who spend this type of coin on a vehicle aren't going to nickel and dime because they'll rather lose features they may want because they're cap price is $90k. At that point, I want almost everything minus the stupid stuff.

Again...its a no brainer to me. It'll be a no brainer to most people.

If GM decided to put all their efforts to producing as many escaldes as possible so they can meet every order quickly...no one would buy a Grand Wagoneer.

It's not "cheaper" because that's just MSRP. Again, MSRP doesn't matter for the retail customer. It's the actual market selling price. I'm not talking about "upgrading" trims. I'm talking about having two vehicles that are comparable in terms of "standard" features.

Also, what do you consider a "no brainer"? Does that mean out of a given 2 options, if one option achieves over 51% acceptance or higher, it's a "no brainer"? I wouldn't consider being a hair over 50% a "no brainer", but maybe you would. For me if 3 out of 4 people make the same choice given the same problem set, I would begin to sense that the common option may be a "no brainer". It would take at least 4 out of every 5 people to convince me that there's a "no brainer" option.

For some 2021 (or 2022 sales if 2021 data does not exist) US sales data for luxury 3 row SUVs. This is not an comprehensive list:

Cadillac Escalade - 40,505 units
Lincoln Navigator - 15,621 units
Grand Wagoneer - > 12,000 units (assuming based on Q4 2021 and Q1 2022 sales data because it started production in Q4 2021)

Audi Q7 - 25,362 units
MB GLS - 24,482 units
BMW X7 - 23,046 units
LR RR - 18,219

 

[firsttimetahoe]

It's not "cheaper" because that's just MSRP. Again, MSRP doesn't matter for the retail customer. It's the actual market selling price. I'm not talking about "upgrading" trims. I'm talking about having two vehicles that are comparable in terms of "standard" features.

Bro…market selling price for a Tahoe Yukon and Escalade is over MSRP.

Market selling price for a Wagoneer is below MSRP.

MSRP is everything to a retail customer.

Jeep dealers wouldn’t have to discount them if people wanted them that badly.

I’ve never heard of a car dealership today selling a car for less money than people are willing to pay for them because of the kindness of their heart…outside of the koons vienna dealership you love.

I don’t believe Jeep put an absurd MSRP markup on these vehicles just to trick the customer into thinking they got a great deal on their hands, because behind the scenes it’s not really that expensive of a car.

When you start discounting luxury vehicles from MSRP that highly right out of the gates….they’re already losing

 

[Miami-Dade]

Where I live now, you can cover 40 miles in 40 minutes on my commute during peak traffic hours. In the NY metro area, it could easily take you over an hour just to go 25 miles.

Takes me 60-90 minutes just to go 30 miles on the Brooklyn Queens Expressway. Even weekends. The Gowanus is not much better.

 

[Polo08816]

It's not "cheaper" because that's just MSRP. Again, MSRP doesn't matter for the retail customer. It's the actual market selling price. I'm not talking about "upgrading" trims. I'm talking about having two vehicles that are comparable in terms of "standard" features.

Also, what do you consider a "no brainer"? Does that mean out of a given 2 options, if one option achieves over 51% acceptance or higher, it's a "no brainer"? I wouldn't consider being a hair over 50% a "no brainer", but maybe you would. For me if 3 out of 4 people make the same choice given the same problem set, I would begin to sense that the common option may be a "no brainer". It would take at least 4 out of every 5 people to convince me that there's a "no brainer" option.

For some 2021 (or 2022 sales if 2021 data does not exist) US sales data for luxury 3 row SUVs. This is not an comprehensive list:

Cadillac Escalade - 40,505 units
Lincoln Navigator - 15,621 units
Grand Wagoneer - > 12,000 units (assuming based on Q4 2021 and Q1 2022 sales data because it started production in Q4 2021)

Audi Q7 - 25,362 units
MB GLS - 24,482 units
BMW X7 - 23,046 units
LR RR - 18,219

Bro…market selling price for a Tahoe Yukon and Escalade is over MSRP.

Market selling price for a Wagoneer is below MSRP.

MSRP is everything to a retail customer.

Jeep dealers wouldn’t have to discount them if people wanted them that badly.

I’ve never heard of a car dealership today selling a car for less money than people are willing to pay for them because of the kindness of their heart…outside of the koons vienna dealership you love.

I don’t believe Jeep put an absurd MSRP markup on these vehicles just to trick the customer into thinking they got a great deal on their hands, because behind the scenes it’s not really that expensive of a car.

When you start discounting luxury vehicles from MSRP that highly right out of the gates….they’re already losing

You're getting emotional and not thinking about what you're saying before typing and hitting post. You're using terms like "never", "no brainer", etc. without having data other than the closest dealership to you and one or two cherry picked articles. Just relax - it's the internet. There's really no need to get worked up.

MSRP means nothing to the retail customer. That's why it stands for Manufacturer Suggested Retail Price. Market selling price is what matters - what are you getting for the money you are spending.


But more importantly, when you say, "... they're already losing", who are you referring to? The manufacturer? The dealer? The retail customer?

How much a manufacturer/dealer profits over a per unit sale is less than tertiary priority for me as a retail customer. I simply don't care. I care about getting the best value for what I need. With that being said, maybe the following individual might care instead of the retail customer:

1. Employee of manufacturer
2. Owner or employee of dealership
3. Fanboi