Engine tapping w/ video

[Skizzot]

I recently swapped the old 186k for an "alleged" 44k mile engine that the salvage yard now has no available VIN record for. (This will be addressed via sworn complaint with the Wisconsin Dept. of Justice - Division of Criminal Investigation where the engine was shipped from.) There are several issues with the swap:

1.) There was more carbon build-up on the intake than there was on my 186k engine. (See photo of #2 intake valve.) The salvage yard declares that carbon build-up on the intake is from "cold weather." Apparently they are trying to say that cold air contains more dirt seeing as to how it's on the intake side.

2.) Following installation it spit carbon deposits out the exhaust that sounded lovely but was undoubtedly expected based upon the build up I had observed. I ran some fuel treatment through the system but now fear doing a top side cleaning.

3.) On the third start-up it had to turn over several times before ignition. The next time it started after 2 revolutions but initiated at 200rpm, went to 900rpm, back to about 350rpm, and then leveled off at ~530rpm. Now I have to assist ignition by depressing the accelerator. There is a bad shudder as well in addition to a tapping on the passenger side top half. The tapping began after about 40 miles....lifters or valve lash? (Thoughts?)

http://youtu.be/46Z2ttWkdSo

*In the video, I placed the camera on the truck so that the shudder could be observed.

4.) I replaced the IAC seeing as to how that was a possible issue before I swapped it from the old engine. The intake manifold gasket was replaced and has now been smoke tested. (Smoke does slightly come out the side of the throttle body where the spring is....normal?) Dealer computers showed a slight voltage irregularity with the MAF so I replaced that. The only other issue the dealership saw was a slight stick in the EGR so that was cleaned. There are no CELs or stored codes.

I'm getting HORRIBLE gas mileage and don't know where to go next. The dealer says $90 an hour to get into it in depth. To top it off, the salvage yard was advertising the same alleged 44k mile engine for sale weeks after my purchase and changed the description to a 64k mile engine after I questioned them on it. They claim it was due to my failure to clear cookies. Well, it was a new quote number and I was on a different computer that had never accessed their site. (I screen captured the new quote and saved the source code before talking to them.) Unfortunately I don't have the funds to be having this problem. Any suggestions on which component(s) to check would be extremely helpful and greatly appreciated. Input about the tapping would also be a plus.

Thanks.

*The TB shown below was not used

 

[ATL]

wow, where to start... first im sorry youve ran into these issues. im sure this project was a pain in ass but u toughed it out thinking the truck would be like new again.

1. carbon doesnt come from "dirty air".

2. i would run cleaner thru it like theres no tomorrow, you shouldnt hurt anything. i would take the t/b off and clean it by hand, but i would seafoam the rest of it.

3. how are all the other diagnostics? how oil pressure? fuel pressure? that does NOT sound like a lifter to me. that sounds like rotational contact of some kind. im really hoping it not inside the motor, but check anything that rotates. does it speed up with engine rpm? could be the fan slightly hitting the fan shroud(thinking positively).

4. the more i read, the sketchier the salvage yard seems that youve been dealing with. collect all the evidence you can such as that screen shot, just in case this doesnt get solved quickly and to your likings

 

[Skizzot]

Oil pressure is good and the fuel pump is pretty new. Engine temp is also good. The tapping is coming from the top half close to the valve cover. I was hoping a lifter or possibly valve lash. I have a bottle of seafoam but fear using it with the start up issue and shudder whereas it may not want to start up after that. Also, I understand what causes carbon buildup but if this is actually a 44k mile engine it was ran with no air filter. I was simply relaying the bogus excuses that the salvage yard gave me about cold air up north containing more carbon.

 

[ATL]

i wasnt saying that you dont understand carbon, i was just gettin at the place you got it from is sketchy. it doesnt sound like a lifter to me, but pull the valve covers off and take a look, i dont think they are too hard to do. just take a good look at the rockers and see if you can see anyway they may be hitting/rubbing something, i guess it could be a bad valvespring. ive heard of weirder... but when the car is running, does it rev up freely or does it break up alittle? does the sound speed up with the rpms?

 

[taylorjm]

Man, that sounds weird. It doesn't sound like valve lash, or anything like that. It sounds almost like plastic in the video, like the fan hitting the shroud that ATL suggested. It just doesn't sound much like metal "ticking". Reminds me of putting the playing card in your bike spokes.

 

[BubZX]

it sounds like something rubbing. if that sound was coming from the bottom end i would say bearing, pull the valve cover and make sure everything looks good under there.

 

[Skizzot]

I'm uploading two more videos to YouTube as I'm typing this and will post a link when the upload is complete. In the first video, I had just cranked the engine (with throttle pedal assist) and there was no noise. About 40 seconds into the video the noise starts. In the second video, the noise is present on what sounds to be the top side. The sound is not prevalent on the bottom side when I get under the truck. I revved the engine and I'm not sure whether the sound fades out or is masked by additional engine noise. It does sound plastic, but there is a 2" space all the way around the fan shroud and nothing is coming into contact with the plastic fan. The sound is hard to describe thus the reason for posting videos. It almost sounds like a very dense metal at times and when I started it up this morning after sitting all night it sounded like a diesel for about 10 seconds.

http://youtu.be/dt1ivH5eSdw

http://youtu.be/LdADABFrAhM

---------- Post added at 06:29 PM ---------- Previous post was at 05:12 PM ----------

Videos were edited into the post above ^^

 

[ATL]

pt ur ear to the end of a pry bar and locate the location of sound. is it def coming from valve covers?

 

[Skizzot]

Great idea ATL. Its's definitely 100% prevalent on the passenger top side. Pry bar to various locations gave the following results.....

1.) Passenger valve cover: SILENT
2.) Block below plastic intake manifold: SILENT
3.) Plastic intake manifold: LOUD AND CLEAR
4.) Throttle body: NOT AS LOUD AS INTAKE MANIFOLD BUT PRESENT

As far as sound, obviously the TB and Intake Manifold connect but what in the IM would give a plastic knocking sound? An intake valve sound would reverberate through the manifold cavities and sound localized given its path through one cavity but I've never heard a plastic sound before....Then again I've never had a plastic intake manifold before. I tend to think that a more metallic sound would be reverberating. The IM tested fine on the smoke test with no leaks as well. Would an erratic injector cause such a sound to travel through the IM cavity? That may explain the start up issue which I just recorded and will post once uploaded. I'm clueless if you can't tell.

---------- Post added at 08:11 PM ---------- Previous post was at 07:46 PM ----------

The following link is to the video of the hard start mentioned above. The engine keeps turning over and will only start once pressure is applied to the accelerator. The MAF and IAC were replaced the other day as well as the EGR being cleaned. Odd thing is....it sometimes fires right up with an erratic idle until it levels off at ~550rpm after about 4 seconds. There is a significant shudder as well.

http://youtu.be/A9NeDUCxa1w

 

[04SS99Denali]

100% valve train related. its taping twice the speed of the engine rpm.

on a side note when i just installed my magnacharger on my silverado i had a lose vacuum line that sounded almost identical to that tap. it could explain all the starting issues your having also

edit: when i say that i mean the entire hose was hanging. not just a small leak

 

[Skizzot]

Any specific vacuum line to look at? It sounds horrible.

 

[bkboatnsleds]

I agree, it sounds like it could be a vac leak, did you check all the hoses on the back of the manifold - its easy to miss something..

Where did you get this motor - what place in WI? I live on the WI border - and drive my tahoe in cold weather - and I dont have all that carbon - BUT - I think some seafoam and maybe some 93 octane could clean that up...

 

[BubZX]

100% valve train related. its taping twice the speed of the engine rpm.

on a side note when i just installed my magnacharger on my silverado i had a lose vacuum line that sounded almost identical to that tap. it could explain all the starting issues your having also

edit: when i say that i mean the entire hose was hanging. not just a small leak

+1 i can hear a vacuum leak in the vid where u go under the truck. when the video starts i can hear it as ur getting closer to the truck.

 

[Skizzot]

I agree, it sounds like it could be a vac leak, did you check all the hoses on the back of the manifold - its easy to miss something..

Where did you get this motor - what place in WI? I live on the WI border - and drive my tahoe in cold weather - and I dont have all that carbon - BUT - I think some seafoam and maybe some 93 octane could clean that up...

Engine and Transmission World
PO Box.370703
Milwaukee,WI.53237

They were actually recommended by a friend who got a decent deal on a hard to find engine. After placing the order I called back to ensure the delivery truck would have a lift gate and got to experience the most arrogant customer service on planet earth. A quick search revealed a Better Business Bureau "F rating" and thousands of complaints. They guaranteed a VIN on the originating vehicle as well as a CarFax. They refuse to provide either now and after multiple requests claim they are not required to have information on the originating vehicle. They are a salvage yard and I will be pursuing the matter through the Office of the Attorney General. I also have a nifty recording app on my phone that recorded all the conversations which is admissible whereas the intro to their phone system declares that all calls are subject to recording.

Anyways.....going back out to the truck (now dubbed "thumper") to see about vacuum lines.

Here's the BBB direct link:

http://www.bbb.org/milwaukee/business-reviews/auto-parts-and-supplies-used/engine-and-transmission-world-llc-in-cudahy-wi-1000001307/

 

[Skizzot]

Here's a pic behind the intake manifold taken from the passenger side. I see one hose that looks like it may be a pressure relief/venting line that isn't connected to anything (It has an end cap that appears to vent?). The only other line I see is the vacuum hose to the brake booster that attaches to the rear of the intake manifold. Still stumped.

 

[04SS99Denali]

when mine was leaking it was comming from the evap solenoid line if i remember right. my truck is not near me or i would go take pictures of the hose. its in a storage unit for the winter lol

just check every vacuum hose and make sure there all connected properly. unplug some and see if the noise changes. try unplugging them and plugging it with your thumb. maybe one has a decent size hole in it that you cant see?

edit: also try and pull that cap off and plugging the hose

did you do the swap yourself? or did a shop do it

 

[Skizzot]

A friend did the swap who has been the master mechanic for Ford, Lexus and Toyota over the past 20 years. I couldn't beat the $450 in labor including replacement of gaskets and seals. Unforunately he's not in town for a while. (My luck.) The truck is sitting at another friend's repair center as I type this. He said one issue was the fuel filter which expelled black fuel when it was drained. This seems odd but when I pulled the fuel pressure regulator the fuel on the engine side was clean. The valve noise has not been determined as of yet. Right now every sensor is being tested to specs and then a vacuum test will be performed. He's doing it as he has time so I have to be patient seeing as to how it is a favor due to my depletion of funds already (that I really couldn't stand to spend).

 

[ATL]

good deal, im very interested to hear what they find!

 

[Skizzot]

good deal, im very interested to hear what they find!

I'll tell you what they won't find.....the new sound system that I had been saving up for to replace the "pop and crackle" factory setup. At least everything went to hell before that purchase which would have been cheap in comparison to what I'm dropping on it now in repairs.

Will keep everyone posted and give a solution to the mystery sound should anyone else have a repeat.

 

[04SS99Denali]

good deal let me know what what it turns out to be