Cat questions

[kbuskill]

Ok, so as some of you know I recently purchased a set of titanium ceramic coated JBA stainless "cat4ward" (shorty) headers for my '08 Burb 5.3L.

This discussion is not about short VS long tube headers as all of that has been hashed and rehashed before.

I know that with long tubes most people run an off road (cat less) Y-pipe and disable the downstream O2 sensors in their tune.

With that being said. Do you think there would be any real advantage to gutting the cats or removing them completely and retuning the ECM to ignore the downstream O2 sensors???

Also if I did gut/remove the cats would there be any advantage to installing the upstream O2 sensors in the down stream location by using extensions on the wiring???

Of course I would put a plug in the upstream O2 sensors bung to block it off in the above scenario.

I have been pondering this for a bit and thought I would run it by the good folk of this forum to get their thoughts/opinions.

My reasoning for thinking about gutting the cats is this...

The idea of ceramic coated headers is to keep the exhaust gases hotter. Hotter gases move faster than cooler gases. The hotter, faster moving gases in each individual header pipe create a suction/vacuum effect on the other header pipes/cylinders (scavenging) thereby causing more of the spent exhaust gases to be removed from the cylinder and allowing more room for fresh air and fuel into the combustion chamber which creates more power.

Now with that being said, my thoughts are that with the cats in place right behind the shorty headers it would cause turbulence and possibly the pressure waves to bounce back toward the engine causing the headers to not scavenge as much as they possibly could. So by removing them you would be keeping the gases moving as fast as possible.

Again I may be way off base here so that is why I'm asking the opinion of the forum.

I have already sent an email to Lew from Diablew since he is the one who tuned my truck. I will let you guys know what he says.

The idea of moving the upstream O2 sensors to the downstream location just came to me since the rear O2 sensors wouldn't be in use. I really have know idea what effects or implications there would be from doing this, if any. I know that guys running long tubes often relocate their upstream O2 sensors further back in the pipes because of the headers.

Any thoughts on this as well... pros or cons???

 

[kbuskill]

How about a bump...

@swathdiver
@randeez
@Rocket Man
@Tonyrodz
@THE YETI


And anyone else that may be running headers or just have an opinion.

 

[Tonyrodz]

Well, this is already all beyond me--but--in my case I wanted to run cats because NJ has a visual for inspection, plus I'm getting older and I didn't want to deal with the fumes--which I have to because I don't have my cats on. Back in the day we would hollow the cats for better performance, but I don't think that really matters today. I don't know about the velocity of the gases or anything remotely close to that lol, so sorry, I can't answer that. As you said too, my rear O2's are tuned out. I think my front O2's are before my collectors, but it's been awhile since I've been under there. Do you have emissions in your state?

 

[kbuskill]

Well, this is already all beyond me--but--in my case I wanted to run cats because NJ has a visual for inspection, plus I'm getting older and I didn't want to deal with the fumes--which I have to because I don't have my cats on. Back in the day we would hollow the cats for better performance, but I don't think that really matters today. I don't know about the velocity of the gases or anything remotely close to that lol, so sorry, I can't answer that. As you said too, my rear O2's are tuned out. I think my front O2's are before my collectors, but it's been awhile since I've been under there. Do you have emissions in your state?

Not any more.

 

[randeez]

i think what youre confusing scavenging with is known as "reversion"... the exhaust valve stays open long enough for the piston to start traveling back down creating vacuum. the shortys will help but i think with VVT its somewhat by design for GM as a replacement of an EGR system.

with all that said, gutting the cats and placing the o2s in the 2nd hole shouldnt change much, they would probably still be closer than they would be on long tubes (in the collectors) I dont think it would make much difference though.

 

[swathdiver]

I think the argument that gutting the cats does not offer a performance increase is bogus. I don't think they'll cause any scavenging problems like you mention but the whole thing would flow better if the honeycomb was gone. That being said, all engines need some backpressure and in my racing days saw cars fall flat on their face because the conventional wisdom (which was wrong) said to use 2.5"-3" duals. I ran my sleeper with the stock exhaust and still made over 400 rear wheel horsepower (Buick GN).

The only benefit I could see with moving the O2 sensors is if the pipe is larger on the downstream side of the cats than before. Might be good for 1 horsepower! You could test all that out with your Torque Pro app.

I say leave the cats and make the runs and do the things you can easily/inexpensively undo. You can't undo a gutted cat or catless Y-pipe with spending some money.

 

[Rocket Man]

I’m running cats because we have visual inspections but I would have gutted the cats if they weren’t welded in where I couldn’t really get to them. My downstream sensors are tuned out. I do know in mine the wire connectors are different between down and upstream so keep that in mind.

 

[kbuskill]

i think what youre confusing scavenging with is known as "reversion"... the exhaust valve stays open long enough for the piston to start traveling back down creating vacuum. the shortys will help but i think with VVT its somewhat by design for GM as a replacement of an EGR system.

with all that said, gutting the cats and placing the o2s in the 2nd hole shouldnt change much, they would probably still be closer than they would be on long tubes (in the collectors) I dont think it would make much difference though.

I understand what your saying about reversion but I am referring to the scavenging theory that the exhaust pulses going into the collector create a vacuum effect on the other primary tubes of the header.

Also my truck is an '08 so no VVT on my truck.

Thanks for responding... I didn't really think moving the O2 sensors back would make any appreciable difference but since the idea popped into my head I figured I would pick everyone else's brain to see what you all thought.

 

[kbuskill]

I think the argument that gutting the cats does not offer a performance increase is bogus. I don't think they'll cause any scavenging problems like you mention but the whole thing would flow better if the honeycomb was gone. That being said, all engines need some backpressure and in my racing days saw cars fall flat on their face because the conventional wisdom (which was wrong) said to use 2.5"-3" duals. I ran my sleeper with the stock exhaust and still made over 400 rear wheel horsepower (Buick GN).

The only benefit I could see with moving the O2 sensors is if the pipe is larger on the downstream side of the cats than before. Might be good for 1 horsepower! You could test all that out with your Torque Pro app.

I say leave the cats and make the runs and do the things you can easily/inexpensively undo. You can't undo a gutted cat or catless Y-pipe with spending some money.

I have also considered the possibility of losing too much back pressure. I would rather lose a few HP up top than to lose any TQ down low where I am trying to gain as much as possible.

These shorties are 1 5/8" primary tubes instead of the 1 3/4" or 1 7/8" primary tube headers so they should be better for keeping a little more back pressure and not losing the bottom end I hope.

 

[kbuskill]

I’m running cats because we have visual inspections but I would have gutted the cats if they weren’t welded in where I couldn’t really get to them. My downstream sensors are tuned out. I do know in mine the wire connectors are different between down and upstream so keep that in mind.

We don't have any inspections here any more so I am seriously considering cutting the cats out and having pipe welded in and just keeping the cats in case I ever decide to put it all back to stock.

When I was talking about moving the O2 sensors back, I was talking about getting extension leads to extend the forward O2 harnesses back to where the rears are. I had no intention of trying to plug the upstream O2s into the downstream wiring.

If I do end up removing the cats then I will have Lew tune out the rear sensors.

 

[bottomline2000]

Moving your front 02 sensors downstream only delays how long it takes the computer to read the exhaust flow. I don't think you want to move them further downstream, kinda like moving a wideband sensor further downstream. I can see the delay in my wideband and it's reading of the exhaust flow and it's just past my downstream O2s which are tuned out.

If the cats haven't failed u are probably better off keeping them. I've heard even stock cats are high flow..

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-T377A using Tapatalk

 

[kbuskill]

I emailed Lew, from Diablew, which is who did my custom tune...

Here is my email to him...

"Hey Lew,

I have a couple quick questions for you.
You had mentioned down stream O2 codes and it got me to thinking.

Q1. Can you turn off the down stream O2 sensors on my 2008 Suburban?

Q2. If I hollowed out the cats and disabled the rear O2 sensors would there be any benefits/gains in power or torque?

Q3. If we did disable the rear O2 sensors because I hollowed out the cats.... Would it make sense to move the up stream O2 sensors back to the downstream O2 sensors location in the pipes by using wire extensions?

These are just some thoughts that I have been running through my head and since you are the tuning guru I figured I would ask you to get some better understanding.

Thanks for your time, Ken"

And his response to me...

1 - yes the rear o2 codes can be disabled if you remove cats, add headers, etc..

2 - no benefits... wouldn't gain you much of anything.. you will have more raw fuel smell...

3 - And noooooo!!! you can't do that man.. the front o2 sensors HAVE to stay in the front where they are! those are the important ones, those control the fueling/fuel trims.. the front o2 sensors have to be installed where they are, in the front.. you can not remove them or put them in the rear.
Thanks!
-- Lew
-- a.k.a. DiabLew / 06MonteSS
-- www.diablewtune.com

I don't think he quite understood what I was meaning about moving the O2 sensors back.

I can understand it being an issue if the cats weren't removed, but with the cats out of the way I don't see where it would be any different other than them being further from the heads and therefore it might possibly read cooler numbers than normal.

 

[kbuskill]

Moving your front 02 sensors downstream only delays how long it takes the computer to read the exhaust flow. I don't think you want to move them further downstream, kinda like moving a wideband sensor further downstream. I can see the delay in my wideband and it's reading of the exhaust flow and it's just past my downstream O2s which are tuned out.

If the cats haven't failed u are probably better off keeping them. I've heard even stock cats are high flow..

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-T377A using Tapatalk

That makes sense... like I said... just a dumb idea I had... lol

So since you have your downstream O2 sensors tuned out...

Can you still see your "cat" temperatures on a scanner like torque pro???

I was under the assumption that the cat temperature was gathered from the downstream sensors (after the cats) BUT when I look at the title of those sensors on torque pro it say "Bank 1 sensor 1" and "Bank 2 sensor 1" so that leads me to believe that the temperature is actually pre cat temps.

 

[swathdiver]

Without those downstream O2 sensors or something to replace them, I reckon his computer does not see them anymore.

I have no recollection of our cars being smelly or raw fuel smell running without cats. Now we can even tune for it. Is everyone afraid to say to do it these days? LOL Besides, if you're running FlexFuel, is not going to smell of gasoline anyways!

I like the idea of the small tube shorties, everything to make torque down where we drive is good to me.

1. Baseline the truck for three passes.
2. Install Shorties and make three more runs.
3. If you gut the cats, make three more runs.
4. If you have done #3, then move the O2 sensors and make 3 more runs.

I've been looking at Banks' iDash 1.8, two of them on a pillar pod would provide a mountain of information while driving.

 

[kbuskill]

Without those downstream O2 sensors or something to replace them, I reckon his computer does not see them anymore.

I have no recollection of our cars being smelly or raw fuel smell running without cats. Now we can even tune for it. Is everyone afraid to say to do it these days? LOL Besides, if you're running FlexFuel, is not going to smell of gasoline anyways!

I like the idea of the small tube shorties, everything to make torque down where we drive is good to me.

1. Baseline the truck for three passes.
2. Install Shorties and make three more runs.
3. If you gut the cats, make three more runs.
4. If you have done #3, then move the O2 sensors and make 3 more runs.

I've been looking at Banks' iDash 1.8, two of them on a pillar pod would provide a mountain of information while driving.

My plan is similar to what you stated..

1. Baseline the truck for three passes.
2. Install Shorties and make three more runs.
3. Remove the cats and make 3 more runs.
4. Have the truck returned with rear O2 sensors tuned out and make 3 more runs.

Gonna see if Lew can send me an updated tune with the rear cats deleted so I don't have to stare at a CEL while I am logging to get the new updated tune.

I am still trying to figure out the logging on the Torque Pro app.

I set the graphing up earlier to record HP, TQ, KR, and ethanol content but then closed the app and when I went back into it the stuff hadn't saved... I guess you have to set it up every time.

Can you think of any other sensors that would be good to graph, from a performance stand point, while making those runs???

I was also thinking of just finding an app to record this screen...

while making those runs.

 

[swathdiver]

My plan is similar to what you stated..

1. Baseline the truck for three passes.
2. Install Shorties and make three more runs.
3. Remove the cats and make 3 more runs.
4. Have the truck returned with rear O2 sensors tuned out and make 3 more runs.

Gonna see if Lew can send me an updated tune with the rear cats deleted so I don't have to stare at a CEL while I am logging to get the new updated tune.

I am still trying to figure out the logging on the Torque Pro app.

I set the graphing up earlier to record HP, TQ, KR, and ethanol content but then closed the app and when I went back into it the stuff hadn't saved... I guess you have to set it up every time.

Can you think of any other sensors that would be good to graph, from a performance stand point, while making those runs???

I was also thinking of just finding an app to record this screen...
View attachment 214516

while making those runs.

Looks good but too much to look at while racing err logging!, so you'll want to record and watch it later. You're just making three runs and not changing anything between them other than the mods. Are the cat temps serving as a poor man's EGT gauge?

Oh, can it calculate MPH at the end of the 1/8 and 1/4 mile? How about distance to 60 mph and 60 foot times? Those are muy importante!

 

[kbuskill]

Looks good but too much to look at while racing err logging!, so you'll want to record and watch it later. You're just making three runs and not changing anything between them other than the mods. Are the cat temps serving as a poor man's EGT gauge?

Oh, can it calculate MPH at the end of the 1/8 and 1/4 mile? How about distance to 60 mph and 60 foot times? Those are muy importante!

Yes on the poor man's EGT gauge... lol

That was actually one of my questions... if I have the rear O2 sensors turned off will the "cat" temps still read?

What I mean is, do those readings come from the front or rear O2 sensors???

Yes I believe it tells you at the bottom of the 1/8-1/4 mile gauges what your speed was but I can't remember for sure... not something I play with every day. I know it shows you how long it takes for sure.

It does 0-60mph times... not sure about distance or 60ft times.

 

[swathdiver]

Yes on the poor man's EGT gauge... lol

That was actually one of my questions... if I have the rear O2 sensors turned off will the "cat" temps still read?

What I mean is, do those readings come from the front or rear O2 sensors???

Yes I believe it tells you at the bottom of the 1/8-1/4 mile gauges what your speed was but I can't remember for sure... not something I play with every day. I know it shows you how long it takes for sure.

It does 0-60mph times... not sure about distance or 60ft times.

I think so Ken. They are calculated and not actual too.

 

[bottomline2000]

That makes sense... like I said... just a dumb idea I had... lol

So since you have your downstream O2 sensors tuned out...
9i
Can you still see your "cat" temperatures on a scanner like torque pro???

I was under the assumption that the cat temperature was gathered from the downstream sensors (after the cats) BUT when I look at the title of those sensors on torque pro it say "Bank 1 sensor 1" and "Bank 2 sensor 1" so that leads me to believe that the temperature is actually pre cat temps.

I have an Autocal and my truck is Efi Live tuned. I'm going to check some datalogs tomorrow and confirm but I don't think my rear cats still show in the log. My EGR is also tuned out, but my wideband is now connected to that port to datalog A/F ratios. Justin must be able to see the EGR port since he adjusted my tune after a log and it's right at 12.5 at WOT..

One thing I think is helpful us I can see my longterm/short term fuel trims and that will give me an idea if my cats are acting up too if either bank has a big deviation from 0.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-T377A using Tapatalk

 

[LanceD]

I deleted my cats. Sounds better and seems to have a little more power.