A/C Question

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blown240

blown240

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What happened before? Was it just an air conditioning service, or was the system out of service for an extended period?

If it was out of service for a longer time, the mechanic should have vacuumed the system for a longer period to remove any residual moisture.

But that's just speculation, of course.

I would go to your mechanic and explain the problems to him, saying that you and others who are knowledgeable believe there's either moisture in the system or the refrigerant level is incorrect, and that he should please check it.

For example, if someone comes to me who was just here a month ago, I quickly connect the car to the air conditioning service machine, run it through, and know what the problem is.
The system has been used daily for many years. It has a tiny leak somewhere that the ac tech can’t find, so I just have it charged every couple years. The current issue has only come up in the last couple months.
 

nonickatall

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The system has been used daily for many years. It has a tiny leak somewhere that the ac tech can’t find, so I just have it charged every couple years. The current issue has only come up in the last couple months.
Than its very likely that the amount of refrigerant is to low...
 

EddieC

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If not already mentioned, I found that when my refrigerant was low the system would not engage, not even a little; the light on the switch button will not even go on.
 

nonickatall

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If not already mentioned, I found that when my refrigerant was low the system would not engage, not even a little; the light on the switch button will not even go on.
That's basically correct, but our systems have two pressure switches: a low-pressure switch and a high-pressure switch.

If you have far too little refrigerant in the system, the low-pressure switch will register insufficient pressure, and the system won't even start.

If too much pressure builds up, for example, if you have far too much refrigerant in the system, the high-pressure switch will trigger, and the system still won't start.

When you have the right pressure in the system, the low-pressure switch says "go," the high-pressure switch says "go," and the system switches on. The refrigerant is then compressed and flows to the expansion valve until the high-pressure switch registers that the pressure is to high. Then the air conditioning system disengages the magnetic clutch, the pressure is released, and the magnetic clutch re-engages.

If the pressure cannot be released, for example, because you have moisture in the system, the expansion valve is frozen, or the refrigerant isn't being cooled insufficiently because your fans aren't running or your condenser is completely clogged with dirt, this system shutdown will take longer and longer, thus reducing the system's performance.

And if you have just enough refrigerant for the low-pressure switch to signal that the system is ready for operation, the system will start. However, the compressor will then pump refrigerant from the low-pressure to the high-pressure side, causing the pressure in the low-pressure side to drop below the threshold that the low-pressure switch recognizes as the minimum pressure.

In this case, your system would also shut down very fast.

In other words, it's possible that you have just enough refrigerant in the system for it to start, but then shut down shortly after because there isn't enough pressure in the low pressure side.

Therefore, it is extremely important that the refrigerant quantity is exactly right—not too much and not too little—and, above all, that it was filled after a sufficient vacuum was created to remove all moisture from the system.

That's the reason why I'm not really convinced by filling your system DIY. If you have a good experience, a proper vacuum pump, two manometers than this can work.. But those who have good experience, for example because they work in a workshop or have dealt with air conditioning systems their whole life, also have very likely access to an air conditioning service unit.

And incidentally, mistakes are often made in workshops as well. They simply check what amount of refrigerant your vehicle requires and fill the system accordingly. I've seen cases where they did this, but the air conditioning didn't work, and upon closer inspection, the refrigerant level was incorrect because, for example, the vehicle was delivered with different compressors that require different amounts, or different lines were installed, too much oil is in the system, what also can cause to high pressure in the system even with the right quantity of refrigerant, or whatever the reason.

Every air conditioning service unit has pressure gauges that allow you to see the pressure levels on the low-pressure and high-pressure sides while the air conditioning is running. An experienced air conditioning technician can tell from this whether the system contains too much or too little refrigerant. While air conditioning systems are fundamentally simple, they do have their complexities.

Furthermore, it is of course important that the condenser is clear at the front and not completely blocked.

And that the condenser's ventilation, i.e., the cooling system, is functioning. Ideally, this should be done with electric fans.

For older vehicles that still have a viscous coupling, you'll need a bit of airflow while driving.

Hope that helps
 
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TJ Baker

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For clarity sake, it is worth a mention that only the rear AC circuit has an expansion valve (txv).

The front AC circuit has no expansion valve. The front circuit has the orifice tube instead.

Additionally, since the entire system is computer controlled there are several more factors involved which enable or disable the compressor operation. Owners of fancy scantools may have seen the "AC Request Withheld" parameter, node $89 PID $3776.

IMG_20200708_201902.jpg



Each of these parameters must be satisfied before the HVAC module will request compressor operation.

Also note there is no "low pressure switch" listed. Instead it is termed a "pressure cycle switch". While travelling at speed it is perfectly normal for the compressor to cycle on and off as needed to prevent excessively low pressure at the low side which would result in freezing temperatures at the low side of the orifice tube and evaporator.

The cycling can be seen in the previously posted graph of live data. An AC service machine will never show this due to the absence of high speed airflow over the condenser coil.
 
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blown240

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Thank you for all the replies!

I really like the idea of wiring in a bulb to the compressor clutch to see if it’s getting power. That will narrow things down.
 

EddieC

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That's basically correct, but our systems have two pressure switches: a low-pressure switch and a high-pressure switch.

If you have far too little refrigerant in the system, the low-pressure switch will register insufficient pressure, and the system won't even start.

If too much pressure builds up, for example, if you have far too much refrigerant in the system, the high-pressure switch will trigger, and the system still won't start.

When you have the right pressure in the system, the low-pressure switch says "go," the high-pressure switch says "go," and the system switches on. The refrigerant is then compressed and flows to the expansion valve until the high-pressure switch registers that the pressure is to high. Then the air conditioning system disengages the magnetic clutch, the pressure is released, and the magnetic clutch re-engages.

If the pressure cannot be released, for example, because you have moisture in the system, the expansion valve is frozen, or the refrigerant isn't being cooled insufficiently because your fans aren't running or your condenser is completely clogged with dirt, this system shutdown will take longer and longer, thus reducing the system's performance.

And if you have just enough refrigerant for the low-pressure switch to signal that the system is ready for operation, the system will start. However, the compressor will then pump refrigerant from the low-pressure to the high-pressure side, causing the pressure in the low-pressure side to drop below the threshold that the low-pressure switch recognizes as the minimum pressure.

In this case, your system would also shut down very fast.

In other words, it's possible that you have just enough refrigerant in the system for it to start, but then shut down shortly after because there isn't enough pressure in the low pressure side.

Therefore, it is extremely important that the refrigerant quantity is exactly right—not too much and not too little—and, above all, that it was filled after a sufficient vacuum was created to remove all moisture from the system.

That's the reason why I'm not really convinced by filling your system DIY. If you have a good experience, a proper vacuum pump, two manometers than this can work.. But those who have good experience, for example because they work in a workshop or have dealt with air conditioning systems their whole life, also have very likely access to an air conditioning service unit.

And incidentally, mistakes are often made in workshops as well. They simply check what amount of refrigerant your vehicle requires and fill the system accordingly. I've seen cases where they did this, but the air conditioning didn't work, and upon closer inspection, the refrigerant level was incorrect because, for example, the vehicle was delivered with different compressors that require different amounts, or different lines were installed, too much oil is in the system, what also can cause to high pressure in the system even with the right quantity of refrigerant, or whatever the reason.

Every air conditioning service unit has pressure gauges that allow you to see the pressure levels on the low-pressure and high-pressure sides while the air conditioning is running. An experienced air conditioning technician can tell from this whether the system contains too much or too little refrigerant. While air conditioning systems are fundamentally simple, they do have their complexities.

Furthermore, it is of course important that the condenser is clear at the front and not completely blocked.

And that the condenser's ventilation, i.e., the cooling system, is functioning. Ideally, this should be done with electric fans.

For older vehicles that still have a viscous coupling, you'll need a bit of airflow while driving.

Hope that helps
Thanks for that information.
Unfortunately that gives me the impression that the average shop is not going to know how to repair the system.
We have had a few Tahoes whose ac stopped working, including the current one.
The information provided tends to make me abandon the thought of repair as since the truck is 18 years old and summer ends in two months.

In the past we had a new VW Passat that had the ac malfunction and even the dealer couldn't fix it presumably due to the complexity. We ended up trading it to one of the dealer's sister dealerships to get out of it.
Nice solid vehicle but too darned much technology destined to be trouble.
 

nonickatall

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For clarity sake, it is worth a mention that only the rear AC circuit has an expansion valve (txv).

front AC circuit has no expansion valve. The front circuit has the orifice tube instead.

Additionally, since the entire system is computer controlled there are several more factors involved which enable or disable the compressor operation. Owners of fancy scantools may have seen the "AC Request Withheld" parameter, node $89 PID $3776.

Each of these parameters must be satisfied before the HVAC module will request compressor operation.

Also note there is no "low pressure switch" listed. Instead it is termed a "pressure cycle switch". While travelling at speed it is perfectly normal for the compressor to cycle on and off as needed to prevent excessively low pressure at the low side which would result in freezing temperatures at the low side of the orifice tube and evaporator.

The cycling can be seen in the previously posted graph of live data. An AC service machine will never show this due to the absence of high speed airflow over the condenser coil.
Good and accurate explanation…:thumbsup:

With this system, as with all air conditioning systems, the first thing to do is rule out moisture in the system and check if there is enough refrigerant.

If these parameters are okay, many other components could be faulty.

However, some things can be easily checked with basic DIY tools. Is the compressor switching on? If not, is the pressure switch, which GM calls pressure cycle switch open? If not, there will be too little refrigerant, which brings us back to the original problem…
 

nonickatall

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Thanks for that information.
Unfortunately that gives me the impression that the average shop is not going to know how to repair the system.
We have had a few Tahoes whose ac stopped working, including the current one.
The information provided tends to make me abandon the thought of repair as since the truck is 18 years old and summer ends in two months.

In the past we had a new VW Passat that had the ac malfunction and even the dealer couldn't fix it presumably due to the complexity. We ended up trading it to one of the dealer's sister dealerships to get out of it.
Nice solid vehicle but too darned much technology destined to be trouble.
I don't understand this. Normally, when I get an air conditioning system in the workshop that isn't working, I connect my service tool and remove the refrigerant. The remaining amount in the system tells me what the problem is. Either it's just lost some refrigerant over the years, or it's completely empty. In that case, the system might be leaking.

Then I create a vacuum for at least 40 minutes and maintain it for 60 minutes. This shows whether the system is fundamentally sealed.

Then I refill the system with the correct amount of refrigerant and start the engine and the air conditioning. Either it works then, or we have to investigate further.

The next check, of course, is to see if there's any power at the magnetic clutch. If there's no power there, I check the magnetic clutch relay. If there's no power there either, I check the low-pressure switch, which is usually a prerequisite for the air conditioning to activate.

After that, things can get complicated, of course, if, for example, the climate control unit itself is defective. In more modern cars, especially German ones, a lot is controlled via the CAN bus, which can make things quite nasty. That's why I'm fed up with repairing German cars from 2005 onwards. And I say that as a German; it's a disgrace.

But the air conditioning in our cars isn't that complex...

In my experience, 90% of the time it's refrigerant loss, 5% it's a defective magnetic clutch, and the rest is distributed among defective low-pressure switches or defective climate control units.
 

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