BREAKING: GM is officially recalling the L87

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blanchard7684

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It would be if they said 0w-20 is what all the new 6.2s would take. But they dont.

I am not sure the point you are trying to make. Why are the new 6.2s not requiring 0w-40? Why are the replacement motors not requiring it? Why is it only on the condemned engines?

The answer is in there somewhere hahah lmao.

0w40 can support an out of spec crankshaft. Not sure how much off spec it is. Judging by some of the miles seen it is barely out of spec.

but 0w20 sure can't.

If you like to gamble, knock yourself out.
 

DuraYuk

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0w40 can support an out of spec crankshaft. Not sure how much off spec it is. Judging by some of the miles seen it is barely out of spec.

but 0w20 sure can't.

If you like to gamble, knock yourself out.
Do you have stock in 0w-40? Hahaha

If you have a vehicle part of this recall you better push for a engine replacement. The passing of inspection is BS lol.

Id imagine the dealers will push for motors too since its gonna be gravy pay.
 

blanchard7684

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1748472259022.png


GM adds more power and reduces viscosity which puts the bearings and rotor closer and closer to a mixed lube scenario vs original design.

The dimensions of the crank and rods are not changed since 1999. This isn't a fresh bearing design that was originally designed for 0w20.

All this does is reduce safety margin and by default adds risk to the customer.

But somehow...in 2024 when out of spec cranks were found the solution was to change oil spec to 0w40.

If 0w20 had no role whatsoever in this failure, then there would be no mention, not a peep, about 0w40 or any viscosity change.

I'd rather run an oil that can mitigate or neutralize some imperfections in machining than an oil that has to have the surface and dimensions absolutely pristine.
 

blanchard7684

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Do you have stock in 0w-40? Hahaha

If you have a vehicle part of this recall you better push for a engine replacement. The passing of inspection is BS lol.

Id imagine the dealers will push for motors too since its gonna be gravy pay.
actually I have a 5.3 z71. I picked it specifically because the engine performed acceptable on a test drive and the 5.3's weren't dropping like flies.

since GM techs get 46% more pay then everyone else, I'm sure this is a welcome recall.
 

DuraYuk

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actually I have a 5.3 z71.

since GM techs get 46% more pay then everyone else, I'm sure this is a welcome recall.
Absolutely.

You do a few its gonna be cake. Just gotta have gm send the engines with haste.

Seems like you have a hard time with objective information. Not surprised at your dealer experience outcome.
 

viven44

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Why are the new 6.2s not requiring 0w-40?

I think this discussion has been on trying to figure out the best oil for 6.2L. It should rather be what the correct oil is knowing what we know today.

6.2L with DFM has had a really rocky start to its service…. Not sure what role DFM played in all of this, but I don’t trust GM at this point, 3 investigations until root cause…. Do we all really believe the 2025 and newer are to be trusted ?

Look at Vlad, all was hunky-dory and boom…. one day he was put into a lot of trouble. He has chosen again to use 0w-20 but his engine was assembled by good mechanics who made sure things were in spec and I think he’ll be alright moving forward.

Don’t want to be stranded in the middle of nowhere. Risk averse parties will/should use 5w-30 on 2025 and newer (if you don’t want to go as far as 0W-40). Can’t hurt anything having that extra safety margin.

Edit: no idea why the honk word was censored
 
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Fless

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I think this discussion has been on trying to figure out the best oil for 6.2L. It should rather be what the correct oil is knowing what we know today.

6.2L with DFM has had a really rock start to its service…. Not sure what role DFM played in all of this, but I don’t trust GM at this point, 3 investigations until root cause…. Do we all really believe the 2025 and newer are to be trusted ?

Look at Vlad, all was ***** dory and boom…. one day he was put into a lot of trouble. He has chosen again to use 0w-20 but his engine was assembled by good mechanics who made sure things were in spec and I think he’ll be alright moving forward.

Don’t want to be stranded in the middle of nowhere. Risk averse parties will/should use 5w-30 on 2025 and newer (if you don’t want to go as far as 0W-40). Can’t hurt anything having that extra safety margin.

Edit: no idea why the honk word was censored

Write creatively... hunky-dory
 

DuraYuk

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I think this discussion has been on trying to figure out the best oil for 6.2L. It should rather be what the correct oil is knowing what we know today.

6.2L with DFM has had a really rock start to its service…. Not sure what role DFM played in all of this, but I don’t trust GM at this point, 3 investigations until root cause…. Do we all really believe the 2025 and newer are to be trusted ?

Look at Vlad, all was ***** dory and boom…. one day he was put into a lot of trouble. He has chosen again to use 0w-20 but his engine was assembled by good mechanics who made sure things were in spec and I think he’ll be alright moving forward.

Don’t want to be stranded in the middle of nowhere. Risk averse parties will/should use 5w-30 on 2025 and newer (if you don’t want to go as far as 0W-40). Can’t hurt anything having that extra safety margin.

Edit: no idea why the honk word was censored
Gm still recommends 0w20 in new 6.2 and replaced 6.2

If there was even a blip of potentially catastrophic engine failures that 0w-40 could prevent GM would use that going forward on everything.

If you dont trust it sell it. But the rest doesn't make much sense.

To each their own.
 

Marky Dissod

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If y'all bother to do enough research on their respective specs and component part numbers,
you'll eventually wonder why GM bothered to differentiate the L87 from the LT1 at all ...

But why do that? So much easier to believe two V8s of identical displacement and static compression are completely different engines?
 

DuraYuk

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If y'all bother to do enough research on their respective specs and component part numbers,
you'll eventually wonder why GM bothered to differentiate the L87 from the LT1 at all ...

But why do that? So much easier to believe two V8s of identical displacement and static compression are completely different engines?
People have pretended their trucks have corvette engines for a long time.

Countless people refer to vortec as LS.

Tale as old as time lol. Doesn't make it true.
 

jfoj

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Going to make this as short as possible.

Oil wedge is better maintained at higher RPMs. These 6.2l rarely exceed 1700 RPM on the highway under most driving conditions.

Oil wedge is typically better maintained with higher oil pressure. These 6.2l have around 25-28 PSI warm oil pressure in drive, 35 PSI warm oil pressure at idle and around 45 PSI warm oil pressure when cruising. The 5.3l has around 60 PSI at 1100 RPM.

Oil wedge typically is more robust with a higher viscosity oil at lower RPM's, higher oil temperature as well as higher RPM's.

GM screwed the pooch with the 6.2l when compared to the 5.3l when it comes to the L84 vs the L87 and oil pressure. GM should have probably put the same oil pump from the L84 into the L87, BUT they chose to do something different.

The L84 5.3l oil pump puts out more pressure at lower RPM's and DOES NOT have the 2nd stage solenoid control that the L87 and predecessors had. Based on all my testing the 2nd stage oil pump solenoid is not controlled by engine Load but by engine RPM. Seems that the 2nd stage is typically not triggered until around 3500 RPM. Oil pressure jumps to around 75--80 PSI when the 2nd stage is triggered. Seems the 2nd stage might be better triggered at 75% and higher engine loading.

0W20 has been used successfully in many engines, BUT the majority of these engines are not pulling a 6000 lb brick down the highway at 1500-1700 RPM with many spikes in engine loading from 70-100% on a regular basis. Add to this the DFM turning on and off cylinders and probably causing crazy crank loading and vibrations. Also assume this loads the thrust bearing more due to crank walking.

Many of the other engines running 0W20 do not have AFM/DFM systems, most of the smaller displacement engines rely mainly on variable valve timing, DFCO, Auto Stop/Start for fuel economy bumps.

The variable displacement oil pump can be problem depending on the oil filter flow restriction. The oil pump modulates or regulates the oil pressure based on the oil pressure build up on a spring inside the vane style oil pump. If you happen to use an oil filter that is too restrictive, the oil pump is fooled to think the oil pressure is correct and backpressure causes the oil pump to modulate or regulate the oil pressure before it even get out of the oil filter.

All this talk about the difference in oil cooling between 0W20 and 0W40 is nothing but noise. If this engine was in a race situation running 7000-8500 RPM non stop, then it might make somewhat of a difference. I believe all the 6.2l engines have a radiator based oil cooler anyway, so this along with a larger oil sump capacity this issue of oil cooling is again, nothing but noise.

The Corvette and the Camero with LT1 which is effectively the same engines are speced for 0W40 by GM, so why the difference? They sell far more trucks with 6.2l engines than the Corvettes and Cameros, has to do ONLY with CAFE and trying to avoid fines.

In general running 0W20 has less of a margin for higher temperature, fuel dilution, low RPM lugging, less shock and cushioning ability and will not tolerate surface finish and wear as well as a higher viscosity oil.

Take a look at these 2 pictures of GM oil filters, one is the OE PF63 and the other is the UPF63R Delco Gold filter. Understand that there is a REASON that GM has so many larger oil intake holes in the PF63 oil filter. I do not know the full reasoning behind this, but part of my thought is to allow better oil pressure charging with the Auto Stop/Start nonsense and overall less restriction on the filter inlet. Additionally the PF63 probably flows better than the UPF63R based on the oil filter media. Regardless of how great/fine the oil filter is, the oil keeps dirt in suspension and the primary way to get dirt, soot and other small particles out of the oil is to change it! Changing oil often is far cheaper and easier than an internal engine repair.

If you are so worried about oil filtration, install a bypass oil filter and use the PF63, you would be far better off than screwing up the variable displacement oil pump performance and operation.

AC Delco PF 63.jpg


UPF63R Base.jpg



Overall I think the debris in the crankshaft and on the connecting rod story is a red herring bunch of BS for GM. If the issue was just the crankshaft tolerances and final finishing, then this pretty much makes GM guilty of VERY POOR quality control and inspection which is really what happened here that there is 4 model years and probably close to 800,000 engines that have some degree of problems. Understand that GM is not counting all the replacement 6.2l in the numbers for the recall.

So everyone will do what they want, think what they want and make all sorts of claims, but the bottom line is GM tried to squeeze too much fuel economy out of the 6.2l in the 6000 lb bricks and it comes with a price and sometimes a very high price. Lots of talk about people not wanting 4 and 6 cylinder engines in vehicles this size and I fully agree, no interest in a Ford Ecoboom or the Jeep/Dodge Hurricane 6 cylinders, you think the 6.2l has problems!!! There is no way the smaller engines will last hauling large vehicles, its asking too much from the hardware and the engine oil.
 
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CorvairGeek

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Going to make this as short as possible.

Oil wedge is better maintained at higher RPMs. These 6.2l rarely exceed 1700 RPM on the highway under most driving conditions.

Oil wedge is typically better maintained with higher oil pressure. These 6.2l have around 25-28 PSI warm oil pressure in drive, 35 PSI warm oil pressure at idle and around 45 PSI warm oil pressure when cruising. The 5.3l has around 60 PSI at 1100 RPM.

Oil wedge typically is more robust with a higher viscosity oil at lower RPM's, higher oil temperature as well as higher RPM's.

GM screwed the pooch with the 6.2l when compared to the 5.3l when it comes to the L84 vs the L87 and oil pressure. GM should have probably put the same oil pump from the L84 into the L87, BUT they chose to do something different.

The L84 5.3l oil pump puts out more pressure at lower RPM's and DOES NOT have the 2nd stage solenoid control that the L87 and predecessors had. Based on all my testing the 2nd stage oil pump solenoid is not controlled by engine Load but by engine RPM. Seems that the 2nd stage is typically not triggered until around 3500 RPM. Oil pressure jumps to around 75--80 PSI when the 2nd stage is triggered. Seems the 2nd stage might be better triggered at 75% and higher engine loading.

0W20 has been used successfully in many engines, BUT the majority of these engines are not pulling a 6000 lb brick down the highway at 1500-1700 RPM with many spikes in engine loading from 70-100% on a regular basis. Add to this the DFM turning on and off cylinders and probably causing crazy crank loading and vibrations. Also assume this loads the thrust bearing more due to crank walking.

Many of the other engines running 0W20 do not have AFM/DFM systems, most of the smaller displacement engines rely mainly on variable valve timing, DFCO, Auto Stop/Start for fuel economy bumps.

The variable displacement oil pump can be problem depending on the oil filter flow restriction. The oil pump modulates or regulates the oil pressure based on the oil pressure build up on a spring inside the vane style oil pump. If you happen to use an oil filter that is too restrictive, the oil pump is fooled to think the oil pressure is correct and backpressure causes the oil pump to modulate or regulate the oil pressure before it even get out of the oil filter.

All this talk about the difference in oil cooling between 0W20 and 0W40 is nothing but noise. If this engine was in a race situation running 7000-8500 RPM non stop, then it might make somewhat of a difference. I believe all the 6.2l engines have a radiator based oil cooler anyway, so this along with a larger oil sump capacity this issue of oil cooling is again, nothing but noise.

The Corvette and the Camero with LT1 which is effectively the same engines are speced for 0W40 by GM, so why the difference? They sell far more trucks with 6.2l engines than the Corvettes and Cameros, has to do ONLY with CAFE and trying to avoid fines.

In general running 0W20 has less of a margin for higher temperature, fuel dilution, low RPM lugging, less shock and cushioning ability and will not tolerate surface finish and wear as well as a higher viscosity oil.

Take a look at these 2 pictures of GM oil filters, one is the OE PF63 and the other is the UPF63R Delco Gold filter. Understand that there is a REASON that GM has so many larger oil intake holes in the PF63 oil filter. I do not know the full reasoning behind this, but part of my thought is to allow better oil pressure charging with the Auto Stop/Start nonsense and overall less restriction on the filter inlet. Additionally the PF63 probably flows better than the UPF63R based on the oil filter media. Regardless of how great/fine the oil filter is, the oil keeps dirt in suspension and the primary way to get dirt, soot and other small particles out of the oil is to change it! Changing oil often is far cheaper and easier than an internal engine repair.

If you are so worried about oil filtration, install a bypass oil filter and use the PF63, you would be far better off than screwing up the variable displacement oil pump performance and operation.

View attachment 458233

View attachment 458235


Overall I think the debris in the crankshaft and on the connecting rod story is a red herring bunch of BS for GM. If the issue was just the crankshaft tolerances and final finishing, then this pretty much makes GM guilty of VERY POOR quality control and inspection which is really what happened here that there is 4 model years and probably close to 800,000 engines that have some degree of problems. Understand that GM is not counting all the replacement 6.2l in the numbers for the recall.

So everyone will do what they want, think what they want and make all sorts of claims, but the bottom line is GM tried to squeeze too much fuel economy out of the 6.2l in the 6000 lb bricks and it comes with a price and sometimes a very high price. Lots of talk about people not wanting 4 and 6 cylinder engines in vehicles this size and I fully agree, no interest in a Ford Ecoboom or the Jeep/Dodge Hurricane 6 cylinders, you think the 6.2l has problems!!! There is no way the smaller engines will last hauling large vehicles, its asking too much from the hardware and the engine oil.
I would have not guessed about the difference in oil pumps.
 

DuraYuk

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Going to make this as short as possible.

Oil wedge is better maintained at higher RPMs. These 6.2l rarely exceed 1700 RPM on the highway under most driving conditions.

Oil wedge is typically better maintained with higher oil pressure. These 6.2l have around 25-28 PSI warm oil pressure in drive, 35 PSI warm oil pressure at idle and around 45 PSI warm oil pressure when cruising. The 5.3l has around 60 PSI at 1100 RPM.

Oil wedge typically is more robust with a higher viscosity oil at lower RPM's, higher oil temperature as well as higher RPM's.

GM screwed the pooch with the 6.2l when compared to the 5.3l when it comes to the L84 vs the L87 and oil pressure. GM should have probably put the same oil pump from the L84 into the L87, BUT they chose to do something different.

The L84 5.3l oil pump puts out more pressure at lower RPM's and DOES NOT have the 2nd stage solenoid control that the L87 and predecessors had. Based on all my testing the 2nd stage oil pump solenoid is not controlled by engine Load but by engine RPM. Seems that the 2nd stage is typically not triggered until around 3500 RPM. Oil pressure jumps to around 75--80 PSI when the 2nd stage is triggered. Seems the 2nd stage might be better triggered at 75% and higher engine loading.

0W20 has been used successfully in many engines, BUT the majority of these engines are not pulling a 6000 lb brick down the highway at 1500-1700 RPM with many spikes in engine loading from 70-100% on a regular basis. Add to this the DFM turning on and off cylinders and probably causing crazy crank loading and vibrations. Also assume this loads the thrust bearing more due to crank walking.

Many of the other engines running 0W20 do not have AFM/DFM systems, most of the smaller displacement engines rely mainly on variable valve timing, DFCO, Auto Stop/Start for fuel economy bumps.

The variable displacement oil pump can be problem depending on the oil filter flow restriction. The oil pump modulates or regulates the oil pressure based on the oil pressure build up on a spring inside the vane style oil pump. If you happen to use an oil filter that is too restrictive, the oil pump is fooled to think the oil pressure is correct and backpressure causes the oil pump to modulate or regulate the oil pressure before it even get out of the oil filter.

All this talk about the difference in oil cooling between 0W20 and 0W40 is nothing but noise. If this engine was in a race situation running 7000-8500 RPM non stop, then it might make somewhat of a difference. I believe all the 6.2l engines have a radiator based oil cooler anyway, so this along with a larger oil sump capacity this issue of oil cooling is again, nothing but noise.

The Corvette and the Camero with LT1 which is effectively the same engines are speced for 0W40 by GM, so why the difference? They sell far more trucks with 6.2l engines than the Corvettes and Cameros, has to do ONLY with CAFE and trying to avoid fines.

In general running 0W20 has less of a margin for higher temperature, fuel dilution, low RPM lugging, less shock and cushioning ability and will not tolerate surface finish and wear as well as a higher viscosity oil.

Take a look at these 2 pictures of GM oil filters, one is the OE PF63 and the other is the UPF63R Delco Gold filter. Understand that there is a REASON that GM has so many larger oil intake holes in the PF63 oil filter. I do not know the full reasoning behind this, but part of my thought is to allow better oil pressure charging with the Auto Stop/Start nonsense and overall less restriction on the filter inlet. Additionally the PF63 probably flows better than the UPF63R based on the oil filter media. Regardless of how great/fine the oil filter is, the oil keeps dirt in suspension and the primary way to get dirt, soot and other small particles out of the oil is to change it! Changing oil often is far cheaper and easier than an internal engine repair.

If you are so worried about oil filtration, install a bypass oil filter and use the PF63, you would be far better off than screwing up the variable displacement oil pump performance and operation.

View attachment 458233

View attachment 458235


Overall I think the debris in the crankshaft and on the connecting rod story is a red herring bunch of BS for GM. If the issue was just the crankshaft tolerances and final finishing, then this pretty much makes GM guilty of VERY POOR quality control and inspection which is really what happened here that there is 4 model years and probably close to 800,000 engines that have some degree of problems. Understand that GM is not counting all the replacement 6.2l in the numbers for the recall.

So everyone will do what they want, think what they want and make all sorts of claims, but the bottom line is GM tried to squeeze too much fuel economy out of the 6.2l in the 6000 lb bricks and it comes with a price and sometimes a very high price. Lots of talk about people not wanting 4 and 6 cylinder engines in vehicles this size and I fully agree, no interest in a Ford Ecoboom or the Jeep/Dodge Hurricane 6 cylinders, you think the 6.2l has problems!!! There is no way the smaller engines will last hauling large vehicles, its asking too much from the hardware and the engine oil.
Where are these generalized statements coming from?

Tundra sequoia lx600 engine = 0w-20

Wagoner = 0w-20

Defender = 0w-20

G550 = 0w-20

Armada/qx 5.6 = 0w-20

I think the expedition is the only flying brick that doesnt use it.

Your oil filter analysis is disproven again as the OEM upgraded GM filter has fewer holes. Upf66


Toyota had similar problem and they literally created the quality standards we go by today in almost every manufacturing industry.


Quick and easy explanation of 'oil wedge'

 
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viven44

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undra sequoia lx600 engine = 0w-20

Wagoner = 0w-20

Defender = 0w-20

G550 = 0w-20

Armada/qx 5.6 = 0w-20

Bruh, those are all DOHC engines. They operate at high RPMs. They make literally no torque under 2000 RPM, in short, they don't lug at all by design or by intrinsic capability thus the "wedge" is pristine as they operate at high RPMs primarily.

Just take a look at the horrendously skewed torque curve on the 3.4 twin turbo in the video below... at low RPMs, the engine can't even kill itself due to lack of wedge, it's comically low in torque at low RPMs.

 
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blanchard7684

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Bruh, those are all DOHC engines. They operate at high RPMs. They make literally no torque under 2000 RPM, in short, they don't lug at all by design or by intrinsic capability thus the "wedge" is pristine as they operate at high RPMs primarily.

Just take a look at the horrendously skewed torque curve on the 3.4 twin turbo in the video below... at low RPMs, the engine can't even kill itself due to lack of wedge, it's comically low in torque at low RPMs.

They were all also designed for 0w20 from the absolute get go.
 

DuraYuk

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Bruh, those are all DOHC engines. They operate at high RPMs. They make literally no torque under 2000 RPM, in short, they don't lug at all by design or by intrinsic capability thus the "wedge" is pristine as they operate at high RPMs primarily.

Just take a look at the horrendously skewed torque curve on the 3.4 twin turbo in the video below... at low RPMs, the engine can't even kill itself due to lack of wedge, it's comically low in torque at low RPMs.

I force = peak torque is 2400rpm

Hurricane I6 = peak torque 2350

Defender = peak torque at 2000

G550 = peak torque at 1950

5.6 = peak torque at 4000 rpm
Nissan 3.5 tt = 3600

Nissan is the only high rever in both v8 and twin turbo guise.

DRUM ROLL PLEASE ****
Gm 6.2 peak torque = 4100 rpm!
 

jfoj

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@DuraYuk

I believe you would argue with a brick wall.

A few things here, you clearly do not have a 6.2l and I am not sure you really fully understand the L87 or the difference between the L84 5.3l and what is going on here.

You also clearly missed the issue on the oil filters.

You keep referencing the oil filter for you DuraYuk, which is different than the 6.2l.

But just to put it out here 1 more time, PLEASE PAY ATTENTION.

Notice how all the standard AC Delco OE filters have base plates with larger and more oil inlet holes. I do not care to research the 3.0l Diesel oil pump and filter, not my problem, do not own one and will not own one, but the way GM implemented the variable displacement oil pump on the 6.2l with its internal pressure control spring is not very well thought out IMHO based on how the 6.2l engine is loaded when driving.

You clearly have not done the logging and data gathering I have done on a 6.2l much less you probably have not even driven a L87 vehicle on a longer trip to see the the Transmission Control Module loads the engine up. And just think about what happens when you fill up one of these Suburban/Yukon XL/Escalde ESV, with 4+ people and gear then add the wind resistance and additional weight of a trailer. Your going to tell me with a straight face 0W20 is more than adequate and will allow these engines to last 300,000 miles??? Also understand that if any of these 0W20 engines end up with 150,000 miles or more, a smart person would switch to 5W30 or 0W40 to offset engine wear as well.

Just because "everyone" is running 0W20 or even lower viscosity oil (0W16 or 0W8) is it a wise idea? I plan on keeping my engine running for at least 200,000 miles, if not more. I would expect more out of it if was not for the DFM trash. You claim is it just technology, it is junk, too many moving and operating parts that are not necessary. The ONLY reason for all the stupid cylinder deactivation is for EPA/CAFE requirements. Over complicate something that is reliable and it becomes unreliable and expense to maintain and repair. I did not buy this vehicle for fuel economy, I bought to haul people and gear and I do not need a bunch of crappy DFM parts failing in under 100-150k miles that cost me a bunch of time and money.

The problem is these days all are options are limited and we all try to take the best of the worst.


PF63 base plate

AC Delco PF 63.jpg


PF64 base plate

PF64.jpg


AC Delco PF66 base plate
PF66.jpg


Typical AC Delco Gold base plate UPD63/64/66R type

UPF63R Base.jpg
 

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