BlaineBug
Full Access Member
I visit dealers regularly for warranty claims. Dealer doesn't necessarily mean competent and honest, although their work bays are always clean and have plenty of room, unlike the shade tree shops of the ghetto.
10L80 - filled transmission at wrong temp???
- Thread starter jyi786
- Start date
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Seamus
Full Access Member
They figure it out???
Not yet, it's at the dealer as we speak. My guess is it will take a few days for diagnostics.
...and as expected, the stupid dealership said they could not replicate it, so they assigned it to the "shop foreman", who said he couldn't replicate it, and reached out to GM TAC for support.
I asked if they even listened to anything I said, because if you simply connected a bi-directional scanner to it and watched the graphs as you drove, you would SEE it.
I told them that you can 1000000000% replicate it, especially when the powertrain is cold. I offered to show up and take them on a test drive, which they accepted. I showed up, took the shop foreman on a test drive, and was able to replicate the issue in under 30 seconds. Additionally, I replicated it a whole bunch of times, so there was no question. So only THEN did the shop foreman say he would connect the scanner to it, drive it, gather the info, and then forward on to GM TAC.
So I'm obviously still playing the waiting game.
I asked if they even listened to anything I said, because if you simply connected a bi-directional scanner to it and watched the graphs as you drove, you would SEE it.
I told them that you can 1000000000% replicate it, especially when the powertrain is cold. I offered to show up and take them on a test drive, which they accepted. I showed up, took the shop foreman on a test drive, and was able to replicate the issue in under 30 seconds. Additionally, I replicated it a whole bunch of times, so there was no question. So only THEN did the shop foreman say he would connect the scanner to it, drive it, gather the info, and then forward on to GM TAC.
So I'm obviously still playing the waiting game.
Finally an update.
The dealership had my truck since Monday morning. On Tuesday evening, I called them asking for a status update. They said they'd have an update for me later that evening. I never got that update. So I waited until Thursday morning, and called. What do you expect: I got the same old line. They assigned it to a tech, who "could not replicate the issue". So they assigned it to the shop foreman, who also "could not replicate the issue".
Incredulously, I said to them that it is 10000000% easily replicated, each and every time, and offered to come to the dealership again to show them. They agreed, and the shop foreman came along for the ride. Within 30 seconds of me getting into the driver's seat, I reliably replicated the issue, and made sure the tech actually felt the shudder at least 3 times. I asked him if he wanted to bring the scanner so that we can do it again, and he said no need, he had all that he needed to proceed.
Fast forward to this evening, I called them for a status update, and the service advisor reported to me that the shop foreman tech finally indeed did find "codes on the TCM" and on the output graphs which indicate clear TCC slippage. The reasoning they gave for "not believing" what I was telling them is that they have never seen a 10 speed transmission fail, and so were completely caught by surprise that it was indeed the case.
They said based on the diagnosis that it was one of three things:
1. Solenoid/s
2. Valve body
3. Torque converter
They said since it was narrowed down to those 3, they would start doing a more in-depth diagnosis in that order (which is also in order of ascending cost) to determine which of the 3 are the problem, and then provide me with an estimate on repairs early next week.
In hindsight, if they would have just done what I asked them to do, they could have saved me a wasted week, because I literally told them what to do, and expected that it was TCC shudder. Whatever. That is behind me now, and I need to focus on getting this fixed.
@NickTransmissions, what are your thoughts on which of the three it might be? I'm really hoping it's either the solenoid or the valve body, because I know from experience that these two are much less expensive than the actual torque converter.
The dealership had my truck since Monday morning. On Tuesday evening, I called them asking for a status update. They said they'd have an update for me later that evening. I never got that update. So I waited until Thursday morning, and called. What do you expect: I got the same old line. They assigned it to a tech, who "could not replicate the issue". So they assigned it to the shop foreman, who also "could not replicate the issue".
Incredulously, I said to them that it is 10000000% easily replicated, each and every time, and offered to come to the dealership again to show them. They agreed, and the shop foreman came along for the ride. Within 30 seconds of me getting into the driver's seat, I reliably replicated the issue, and made sure the tech actually felt the shudder at least 3 times. I asked him if he wanted to bring the scanner so that we can do it again, and he said no need, he had all that he needed to proceed.
Fast forward to this evening, I called them for a status update, and the service advisor reported to me that the shop foreman tech finally indeed did find "codes on the TCM" and on the output graphs which indicate clear TCC slippage. The reasoning they gave for "not believing" what I was telling them is that they have never seen a 10 speed transmission fail, and so were completely caught by surprise that it was indeed the case.
They said based on the diagnosis that it was one of three things:
1. Solenoid/s
2. Valve body
3. Torque converter
They said since it was narrowed down to those 3, they would start doing a more in-depth diagnosis in that order (which is also in order of ascending cost) to determine which of the 3 are the problem, and then provide me with an estimate on repairs early next week.
In hindsight, if they would have just done what I asked them to do, they could have saved me a wasted week, because I literally told them what to do, and expected that it was TCC shudder. Whatever. That is behind me now, and I need to focus on getting this fixed.
@NickTransmissions, what are your thoughts on which of the three it might be? I'm really hoping it's either the solenoid or the valve body, because I know from experience that these two are much less expensive than the actual torque converter.
Seamus
Full Access Member
I was just at the dealer regarding a coolant leak. I happened to speak with the tech who did my friends 2020 10 speed. His is a 3.0 Duramax. His exact words: There are two gears in front of the pump that go bad, subsequently takes out the TC and contaminates the valve body. Said it sounds like marbles when this happens. Said if caught early, replace gears, replace TC, replace valve body, filter, and flush when taken apart. Said if there is any crap in there the TC must be replaced as it cannot be flushed out. ---I asked about my 2018 Escalade and should i be concerned? His response: Never had a bad one here only the 10 speed behind the 3.0 Duramax has issues. They have been a great trans he said. FYI
Side note: They had about 7 2021+ yukons and silverados in there for cams, lifters and bottom ends. Said anything past 2020 is a nightmare motor don't ever consider it. Said thats all they do, its worse than the internet ! LOL When do you ever hear a tech say that??
He owns a 2018 and said delete it and call it a day
Side note: They had about 7 2021+ yukons and silverados in there for cams, lifters and bottom ends. Said anything past 2020 is a nightmare motor don't ever consider it. Said thats all they do, its worse than the internet ! LOL When do you ever hear a tech say that??
He owns a 2018 and said delete it and call it a day
BlaineBug
Full Access Member
Isn't this the same 10-speed made in partnership with Ford where one of the drums is able to slide back and forth a bit causing a shudder OR a very harsh and firm shift?
It's hard to say what the root cause is/was but generally speaking, any shuddering is the converter clutch, regardless and once that starts, it is generally not advisable to keep the converter installed...So the only real question is whether the failure started in the converter or was caused by wear in the valve body (TCC priority and/or regulator valve circuits) or TCC solenoid.
Basically what I'm saying is you could be looking at replacing the TC and valve body/TCC solenoid not just one or the other...Shop will pull the valve body down, throw it on the Sonnax vacuum test machine and determine if there's sealing integrity issues with those two valves which are responsible for torque converter clutch function...If weakness is observed, they will want to replace either just the TCC priority valve w/a Sonnax valve or perhaps the entire assembly which will come with a new TCC solenoid. I would be surprised if they only recommend solenoid replacement but what they may do is offer to try that first as it would be the least expensive solution, do a test drive and assess from there whether anything more is necessary.
Ok thank you.
So what do you recommend I do? Sounds like I have 3 options:
1. Let them continue to diagnose and go in order of repair for those 3 components.
2. Ask them to replace the TC/valve body.
3. Ask them to install a completely brand new (or remanufactured) transmission.
I also reached out to another transmission building company and am asking for their quotes on those 3 components.
They still have the vehicle, right? If so, let them diagnose it, tell you what's wrong and what must be done to fix/cost of repairs. Then make a decision based on what they say...If the price is too high or you dont agree with their conclusions, obtain a second opinion from another shop. Do not just ask them to start replacing parts without a diagnosis.
Yes, they still have my truck.
Solid copy on that, good advice. I will wait on them to tell me what is the problem and go from there.
BlaineBug
Full Access Member
Good luck on them narrowing it down the actual cause of fault with 100% certainty.
@NickTransmissions, another update from the dealership. As expected, you were exactly right.
GM TAC told them to start with the valve body (not just the TCC solenoid). If that doesn't work, they said to replace the torque converter. The issue for me? The work to replace the valve body is $2300, the TC is $2600. IF the valve body doesn't work out, and then I have to replace the TC, that's $5000.00. If I have to spend that much why not get a new transmission instead?
I have the dealership sending me a quote for all 3.
Based on your experience, what should I do? Should I just go ahead and proceed with what GM says? I don't want to be spending $5k if this isn't going to totally fix the problem.
Thanks!
GM TAC told them to start with the valve body (not just the TCC solenoid). If that doesn't work, they said to replace the torque converter. The issue for me? The work to replace the valve body is $2300, the TC is $2600. IF the valve body doesn't work out, and then I have to replace the TC, that's $5000.00. If I have to spend that much why not get a new transmission instead?
I have the dealership sending me a quote for all 3.
Based on your experience, what should I do? Should I just go ahead and proceed with what GM says? I don't want to be spending $5k if this isn't going to totally fix the problem.
Thanks!
What does 'start with the valve body' mean in this context? Are they going to drop the valve body and vac test it to determine if the TCC valves mentioned above are worn and/or those circuits are not sealing properly? Or are they just throwing parts at it to see what sticks?
This is why I do all my own work on stuff...Sounds like this dealership is either clueless or trying to take your money. I'd get a second opinion at this point, seems like they want to just bolt crap on without any regard for whether it's the right thing to do or not...Replacing the VB and TCC (the new VB assembly will actually have all new solenoids/etc thus the higher cost) but if that doesn't work, does that mean the brand new valve body and TC that you'd hypothetically pay for get tossed with the existing transmission if it turns out you need a new one because the TCC failed, maybe damaging the pump and sent contaminant throughout the unit?
Yes, GM TAC told the dealership to replace the valve body.
Apparently they sent the results to GM, and after looking at the graphs from the scanner logs, told them that's what they should do. I do not believe they did any actual diagnostic; they are simply sending this info to GM TAC. This isn't the same transmission, but the following service bulletin is the kind of guidelines GM has for these issues. See NHTSA link.
You are thinking exactly what I was, and so I will ask the dealership about it, because if the TC is bad, and I put in a new valve body, it's going to contaminate it and it will need to be replaced AGAIN.
Edit: just confirmed with the dealer. They said this is how it works.
1. Change valve body.
2. If it doesn't resolve concern, move onto TC.
3. If (and only if) TC is found to be sending contaminants through system, and new valve body was installed, new valve body will ALSO be replaced free of charge since it was already paid for in step 1.
So essentially, they will replace the new valve body if TC is indeed bad without me having to pay twice for it.
1. Change valve body.
2. If it doesn't resolve concern, move onto TC.
3. If (and only if) TC is found to be sending contaminants through system, and new valve body was installed, new valve body will ALSO be replaced free of charge since it was already paid for in step 1.
So essentially, they will replace the new valve body if TC is indeed bad without me having to pay twice for it.
On what basis are you going to replace it? Do you have the necessary vacuum testing equipment to test the individual apply circuits in the valve body?
Stop trying to throw parts at it before you determine if the valve body is the problem...Understand that GM's TAC takes a balancing of the interests approach when it comes to their recommendations which may or may not be inclusive of your interests only. They weight the amt of overhead, including tech/admin time, costs, etc against cost efficiency goals to arrive at a recommendation. In this case, that translates to, "it must be the valve body and solenoids based on the scan tool data which is sufficient for us to take the next step". What you're not understanding is whether or not the VB/Solenoids are the actually cause, one of the causes or not...Maybe it's bad, maybe it isnt but the TCC is slipping so for them, it's easiest in the short term to just replace those two things first....if it doesn't fix the problem, they have no issues telling you that you also need a torque converter and it's going to cost X dollars to do that...now you're into it for over $4,000, which is only a grand away from a whole new transmission...
See the pattern here?
I do, that absolutely is clear.
I've asked them to send me the error codes they said they were seeing, as well as any graph outputs that would aid me in making a decision.
I also got a second opinion, and to change those two components, the cost was almost equal between the dealer and this other shop, which is apparently highly reputable. $5k is the amount.
FWIW, a new transmission is $13k, from the dealer. The transmission shop I spoke to that gave me the second opinion, stated that it's difficult if not impossible for THEM to do a rebuild because they just don't have the experience with it.
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