Getting your oil checked for foreign metals

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NELLY1947

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I finally found someone in Canada who will do a complete analysis on your engine oil. I feel this is now a must seeing the problems with the 6.2 units. Once you send in the sample the turn around is 24-48 hours. Also not expensive IMO.
I'm sending in a sample myself next week and will do an update.

Wear Check
Toll Free: (800) 268-2131
Fax: (905) 569-8605

C8-1175 Appleby Line
Burlington, ON L7L 5H9 CANADA
www.wearcheck.com
 
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NELLY1947

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Personally I would not know. I'm assuming they do the same thing. The reason for the post is it's difficult to send send used oil or used oil filters over the border. I once had a sample kit seized and it never got to the lab. I had my oil and filter done yesterday. Will post the results as soon as I get them.
 

Eighthtry

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In my brilliance I came up with the idea of an independent oil analysis, since GM will only let me know if my engine will fail until after it fails. That is one way to lower the cost of stupidity.

I sent a message to Lake Speed at SpeedDiagnostics for a recommendation as to how to do it. Following is his answer. I ordered two analysis packs.

It is mandatory to read his posts. His business is oil testing and formulation. He started at the NASCAR level with Joe Gibbs Racing.
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Thanks for the email and for choosing SPEEDiagnostix. Do not worry about additive levels outside the context of the used oil analysis results. That is why we are not posting any new results. Too many people are focusing on the wrong things.

That is why we made this video:


And why we made this video:


Here’s the proper framework for making decisions about oil.

Step 1 - Utilize the OEM recommended oil and do two early oil changes during the break-in process (500 to 1,000 miles and again between 3,000 and 4,000 miles). If the engine is already broken-in, skip to step 3.

Step 2 - Take used oil samples at each oil change to establish the trend analysis.

Step 3 - Go 5,000 miles on the third oil change and take a used oil sample. If the wear rate per 1,000 miles is below 5 ppm, you are good. If the wear rate is between 5 ppm and 10 ppm per 1,000 miles, go another 5,000 miles on the OEM recommended oil and resample. If the wear rate is still greater than 5 ppm per 1,000 miles, then move to step 4.

Step 4 - Since the OEM recommended oil and viscosity have not produced a wear rate per 1,000 miles lower than 5 ppm, go up to next viscosity grade in the OEM oil. Go 4,000 to 5,000 miles on that oil and then take another sample. See if the change in viscosity drops the wear rate per 1,000 miles below 5 ppm. If it does, you are good. If it does not, then move to Step 5.

Step 5 - Since the change in viscosity did not get the wear rate per 1,000 miles below 5 ppm, try a different brand of oil in the same viscosity grade of whichever oil had the lowest wear rate per 1,000 miles. You will need to use it for 3,000 to 4,000 miles to flush the OEM oil out of the system before going 5,000 miles on the new oil to take another sample. See if the non-OEM oil lowers the wear rate per 1,000 miles to 5 ppm or less. If it does, you are good. You can then use the oil analysis results to fine tune the oil change interval.

If the wear rate per 1,000 miles is still above 5 ppm, try the next higher viscosity oil of that same brand to see if that lowers the wear rate per 1,000 miles. Finding the best oil for an engine is an iterative process, but the data from the samples (viscosity, additive depletion, wear rate) will paint a picture that guides you in the right direction.

Thanks,

Lake Speed Jr.
Certified Lubrication Specialist
Oil Monitoring Analyst
 
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NELLY1947

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Thanks for the info. I just posted " Fuel in the oil" the lab found 4.1% fuel in the oil. This is bugging me.bany comments?? I'll speak to them tomorrow
 

Antonm

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In my brilliance I came up with the idea of an independent oil analysis, since GM will only let me know if my engine will fail until after it fails. That is one way to lower the cost of stupidity.

I sent a message to Lake Speed at SpeedDiagnostics for a recommendation as to how to do it. Following is his answer. I ordered two analysis packs.

It is mandatory to read his posts. His business is oil testing and formulation. He started at the NASCAR level with Joe Gibbs Racing.
__________________

Lake Speed Jr is a smart guy and certainly knows the subject matter, but (there is always a "but") he's looking at it from the racing/ controlled environment perspective.

The method he describes works to get you to the bare minimum/ thinnest oil that meets his acceptable wear levels,,, which is fine is a racing application were the usage/ application ,engine load, along with engine and oil temperatures are generally the same all the time.

What his method doesn't address is the varying conditions a road going engines sees. Lets say you did his method of oil selection during the spring time when its 60*F outside and you weren't towing anything,,, and you found out that oil "X" was your jam.

Fast forward to the summer months and now you want to tow your boat to water. The engine load is higher, the engine/ oil temperature is higher, and the oil is thinner as a result,,,is oil "X" still your jam,,, maybe,,,, maybe not.

The reason Lake Speed Jr wants to get the thinnest oil that will do the job is because that is also the oil that will provide the most horsepower to the ground, and in racing, horsepower to the ground is everything.

Run a little thicker oil, yeah the wear will still be good, but it'll take another 1 or 2 horsepower to pump that oil around the engine, so you have 1 or 2 less horsepower available to push you out of the turn, unacceptable in a racing environment where the margin of victory is measured in the thousands of a second, but its no big deal driving around at part throttle on public roads.

For Lake Speed Jr's method to work correctly, you'd have to do his oil selection process at full throttle, max load, and at the highest heat the engine can tolerate (you know, the conditions that race engines see every time they get on the track)
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Marky Dissod

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EVERY engine in the US using ANY motor oil thinner than 0W30 / 5W30, would only lose 1MpG or 2MpG using 0W30 / 5W30,
and in exchange for that tiny penalty, better protection against wear and tear, normal or otherwise.
 

jfoj

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A few other comments about oil analysis.

As mentioned the driving conditions can and will vary a lot typically between oil analysis and therefore it could mask was is really going on within the engine.

Possibly scenario, your engine used 1 quart of oil every 2000 miles. You add 3-4 quarts of fresh oil between oil changes/oil analysis. For some reason the way you drive your vehicle the oil gets fuel contaminated above an "acceptable" level. But each time you add fresh oil you actually reduce the effective fuel contamination percentage.

You change your oil at say 8,500 miles, you added 4 fresh quarts of oil between the prior oil change. You obtain your sample and send it in for analysis. You note you have added fresh oil for the lab to consider, however, they only see the amount of fuel the oil at the time the oil sample was tested and it comes back as "acceptable". You have no real idea how badly the oil was fuel contaminated during the 8,500 miles between oil changes. Maybe it is not badly contaminated with fuel, but you really have no idea.

Another major think the oil sample cannot detect is how much large debris is either in the oil pan or in the oil filter. It is possible some of the debris is small enough to get past the oil filter for analysis, but this is often missed and may also give a false sense of what is actually going on.

While I like the idea of oil analysis you need to use this as a tool and it is only part of the big picture. Additionally it is not cheap, so if you wanted to pull oil samples before the oil change to get a better idea about what is going on, often it makes more sense to put the money that you would spend on sampling oil toward just a shorter Oil Change Interval.

Suggest you see this thread, I will be adding to it soon as well:

 

Marky Dissod

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Possible scenario, your engine used 1 quart of oil every 2000 miles. You add 3-4 quarts of fresh oil between oil changes/oil analysis.
For some reason, how you drive your vehicle the oil gets fuel contaminated above an "acceptable" level.
But each time you add fresh oil you actually reduce the effective fuel contamination percentage.

You change your oil at say 8,500 miles (!), you added 4 fresh quarts of oil between the prior oil change. You obtain your sample and send it in for analysis.
You note you have added fresh oil for the lab to consider, however, they only see the amount of fuel in the the oil
AT THAT TIME the oil sample was tested and it comes back as "acceptable".
You have no real idea how badly the oil was fuel contaminated during the 8,500 miles between oil changes.
Maybe it is not badly contaminated with fuel, but you really have no idea.
Only way an 8,000 mile oil change is *acceptable*, is if the vehicle only slows down and gets shut off for refueling, then immediately gets up to highway speed and spends over 98% of its time with the TCC locked in the last two gears on the highway til it stops to refuel again.
*acceptable, as in, sooner / more often would be better, even if it was not consuming ANY oil between changes.

Then again, if it needs 4qt between 8000 mile oil changes, @ 8qt per oil change, it needs to get its oil changed MUCH sooner / more often.
Try 5000 mile oil changes.

In the above scenario, a great deal of the used oil has been straight-up consumed, while the fresh oil added dilutes the concentration of contaminants present.
 

jfoj

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You do know that the OLM typical hits 0% under many circumstances at 8000-8500 miles and most people run their vehicles until the OLM hits 0% before they change the oil!
 

Marky Dissod

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Unfortunately I do.
I also remember in the VERY early days of the NorthStar V8's oil life monitor, that the instructions were to change oil when it gets down to 15%.
85% of 8500 is a lil over 7,000 miles, still a bit too long in my experience.

Clearly GM is extending the oil change intervals to appease both owner/operators and CAFE / EPA.
I 'believe' that if you're experiencing ANY oil consumption, you change the oil sooner til oil consumption is under 1/2 a qt per oil change.
 

jfoj

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I don't recommend anything going below 60% on the OLM for changing the oil.
 

Antonm

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I don't recommend anything going below 60% on the OLM for changing the oil.

Yeah, that's just uniformed crazy talk right there.

The OLM that GM uses is actually pretty decent, it uses a system of credit and debits for different operating conditions, it's not just a milage counter. Plenty of people over the decades have independently proven it's solid. Now it is just an algorithm, not it can't detect issues that may be unique / dependent to environment/ application/ usage, but its pretty good, certainly not off by 60% as you seem to think.

Changing oil at 60% life left on the OLM is literally pouring money down the drain and hoping. If you actually want to know what's going, spend a portion of that money you would use on the unneeded oil change and get a used oil analysis done. At least then you'd have some actual real data, not just guessing and using feelings to decide when to change your oil.
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jfoj

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Antonm,

Do not think you and I will ever agree on anything. These newer DI engines that generate soot in the crankcase, dilute the oil with fuel, have DFM, Auto Stop/Start, Variable Cam Timing, roller lifters with needle bearing and the 10 speed transmission that loads the 6.2l up and lugs it down the highway is recipe for disaster.

We really need to go back to late 60's, early 70's maintenance in these newer vehicles. Sure the oil is better, but there are PLENTY of things working against the newer synthetic oils.

There is no way I would go beyond 50% OLM in one of these newer vehicles, do not care how GM programmed the algorithm, they do not have the OLM programmed for engine longevity.

I am currently at 64% OLM on my current oil change, this equates to 2,722 miles at this point. I am guessing by the time I hit 60% I might be around the 3,500 mile mark, maybe a bit lower. The majority of my driving is highway. Typically when I start the engine it will run between 45 minutes to 6 hours.

The max I will run the oil in a modern vehicle is 4,000 miles. Oil analysis is not cheap, it is typically over 1/2 the price of what I can change my oil for, some of the more expensive provides the analysis is closer to 80% of what I can change my oil for.

I plan on keeping this vehicle for a long time as long as the 6.2l holds together. I would rather over maintain the vehicle than maintain it at GM's recommendations. So over 100,000 miles I might change my oil 2x more frequently that most people, but at the cost of the oil changes I could not even perform a single internal engine repair for the cost of the extra oil changes. Additionally if the engine actually holds together and I decide I want to keep the vehicle longer, you cannot turn back the clock on under maintaining the vehicle.

In hindsight I probably should have taken better care of my 2005 6.0l Yukon that has 275,000 miles on it at the moment, but it is what it is at this point. It is still a daily driver even though I have the 2024. The 2005 owes me nothing at this point and as long as there are no major expenses that come up, I will keep the 2005 running as long as I can, hell it may even outlast the 2024??
 

Vladimir2306

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You do know that the OLM typical hits 0% under many circumstances at 8000-8500 miles and most people run their vehicles until the OLM hits 0% before they change the oil!
no that's not true. OLM 0% is max 7500 miles
 

jfoj

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no that's not true. OLM 0% is max 7500 mile
Correct, what I meant to point out that very few people get their oil changed before or right at the 7,500 mile mark. I looked at quite a few pre-owned Yukon's before I purchased new and I looked over the service history carefully. Many of the vehicles had close to 8,000 miles or slightly more on even the first complementary oil change. This is because many people wait until they have a OLM reminder pop up, then they have a busy life and the dealers are busy and often times the vehicle does not get into have the oil changed until after the OLM has reached 0%.

Few people even plan their oil changes. Often if I know I will be taking a trip, knowing the distance I will travel on the trip, even if the mileage is early, but I know I will likely exceed my oil change window, I will change the oil early, before I take my trip to make sure I do not exceed my oil change window. Just basic planning.

Again, I would rather over maintain my vehicle than under maintain my vehicle. It costs very little for early oil changes in the big scheme of things and you cannot undo varnish, dirt, contamination and premature wear after the fact.

Oil is cheaper than metal in the long run.
 

blanchard7684

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Few people even plan their oil changes. Often if I know I will be taking a trip, knowing the distance I will travel on the trip, even if the mileage is early, but I know I will likely exceed my oil change window, I will change the oil early, before I take my trip to make sure I do not exceed my oil change window. Just basic planning.
I do the same.
 

Antonm

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Antonm,

Do not think you and I will ever agree on anything.
I disagree with you so often because you are wrong so often. You do repeat some correct information occasionally (likely without actually understanding why it's correct, I'm guessing the whole "blind squirrel" analogy fits here).

This one about the OLM, and changing the oil at 60% remaining, ranks right up there with your insistence that your particular 6.2 is special somehow and holds 9 quarts of oil vice the 8 quarts literally every other 6.2 holds



These newer DI engines that generate soot in the crankcase, dilute the oil with fuel, have DFM, Auto Stop/Start, Variable Cam Timing, roller lifters with needle bearing and the 10 speed transmission that loads the 6.2l up and lugs it down the highway is recipe for disaster.

Fuel dilution absolutely can be an issue in all engines , not just DI (ever take an oil sample on a carbureted big block? The amount of fuel in the oil is crazy).

But, do you wonder why our modern cars hold more oil now that they used to? Like the GM SUV's this board is about hold 8 quarts (well, except yours, which you think holds 9 quarts), and by comparison a 1970 big block Chevelle only holds 5 quarts? I'll give you a hint, its to allow for more capacity for holding contaminants before they become an issue which allows for a longer oil drain interval than 3K miles like we all grew up hearing.

Draining oil at 60% on the OLM monitor is the definition of pouring money down the drain. There is no actual benefit to throwing away good oil, only placebo effect.


We really need to go back to late 60's, early 70's maintenance in these newer vehicles. Sure the oil is better, but there are PLENTY of things working against the newer synthetic oils.

More mis-informed crazy talk right there. Fuel dilution was way worse back then because carburetors fuel dilute oil more than DI engine ever though about, and the oil capacity was lower.

In case the concept about oil capacity escapes you, lets say an engine has 4 ounces of fuel in the oil after a given amount of milage. In that 60's/ 70's car ,that holds 5 quarts, that would be 2.5% fuel dilution (which anything above 2% is considered bad).
Take that same 4 ounces of fuel and put in the normal 8 quarts of oil in one of these SUV's and its only 1.5% fuel dilution (so below where damage is likely to occur). In your special 1 of 1 engine that hold 9 quarts is only 1.3 %.

Also any oil you pick up off the Walmart shelf with a API SP sticker on it is VASTLY superior in every way to literally any oil you could buy in the 60s/70's.

Just the whole concept if "going back to the late 60's, early 70's maintenance" is ridiculous by itself. How long did those 60's and 70's cars last again? Plenty of modern cars go 200K plus, and unheard of feat for a 60's / 70's car without major component replacements (like multiple engine rebuilds).


There is no way I would go beyond 50% OLM in one of these newer vehicles, do not care how GM programmed the algorithm, they do not have the OLM programmed for engine longevity.

And you base this decision off what??? Your feelings?

Do some googling around, the GM OLM is not as evil as you think it is. For all the things GM has gotten way wrong over the decades, the OLM isn't one of them, it certainly isn't perfect (again its just an algorithm ) but it is pretty decent, and certainly not off by 60%.

Here's a video by a guy that's recently gained popularity in the motor oil scene. He's not saying anything that hasn't been known and written about for the last few decades, but I guess video has taken over from books as being the place people think reliable information comes from. While I don't agree with everything he says, you can a better picture of the GM OLM from him.


I am currently at 64% OLM on my current oil change, this equates to 2,722 miles at this point. I am guessing by the time I hit 60% I might be around the 3,500 mile mark, maybe a bit lower. The majority of my driving is highway. Typically when I start the engine it will run between 45 minutes to 6 hours.

The max I will run the oil in a modern vehicle is 4,000 miles. Oil analysis is not cheap, it is typically over 1/2 the price of what I can change my oil for, some of the more expensive provides the analysis is closer to 80% of what I can change my oil for.

I plan on keeping this vehicle for a long time as long as the 6.2l holds together. I would rather over maintain the vehicle than maintain it at GM's recommendations. So over 100,000 miles I might change my oil 2x more frequently that most people, but at the cost of the oil changes I could not even perform a single internal engine repair for the cost of the extra oil changes. Additionally if the engine actually holds together and I decide I want to keep the vehicle longer, you cannot turn back the clock on under maintaining the vehicle.

In hindsight I probably should have taken better care of my 2005 6.0l Yukon that has 275,000 miles on it at the moment, but it is what it is at this point. It is still a daily driver even though I have the 2024. The 2005 owes me nothing at this point and as long as there are no major expenses that come up, I will keep the 2005 running as long as I can, hell it may even outlast the 2024??

This last section of your post is just full of more mindless dribble. You can certainly do as you see fit (its still a free country for the moment), but just because that's what you choose to do doesn't mean its the best thing, or will result in the longest engine life.

Over-maintenance reduces equipment lifespan, obviously not an much as under-maintenance does, but over-maintenance still reduces lifespan because it introduces more opportunity for error and more opportunity for defective replacement parts to be introduced.

Do some googling and reading around about the bathtub curve of reliability. The cliff notes version is every time you open up , work on, or put a new part in that isn't needed in a piece of equipment you start back over at the left side of the curve. This concept is widely known, studied and practiced in the industrial reliability world where equipment downtime means money lost.

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jfoj

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Antonm,

Your a genius. I have not idea how I ever survived without you and your direction.

Should have met you 30 years ago.

Love how you are so supportive and friendly toward forum members.
 

Fless

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Antonm,

Your a genius. I have not idea how I ever survived without you and your direction.

Should have met you 30 years ago.

Love how you are so supportive and friendly toward forum members.

Forum tip: if you want to "tag" a member, either quote that member's post (like I did here) or start with a "@" sign and start typing the member's username and select it from the dropdown, like this: @jfoj @Antonm.

If neither is done, your post may go unseen by the desired member.
 

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