Expedition vs Yukon

[DuraYuk]

Tow ratings have certainly improved, but those tow ratings are largely due to powertrain improvements.

And brakes, and chassis, and rigidity, and safety.

Similar to how today's 1/2 ton pickups can tow as much as yesterday's 3/4 tons.

Technology improves. Crazy i know.

 

[Polo08816]

And brakes, and chassis, and rigidity, and safety.

Similar to how today's 1/2 ton pickups can tow as much as yesterday's 3/4 tons.

Technology improves. Crazy i know.

Either way, I'm not sure today's 1/2 ton pickups can carry 4 people, have 500 lbs of gear in the bed, and still tow a 8000 lbs enclosed trailer. I'm inclined to think you'll be exceeding the capacity (specifically, rear axle weight rating) of a modern 1/2 ton pickup (as well as 1/2 ton based full size SUV).

 

[DuraYuk]

Either way, I'm not sure today's 1/2 ton pickups can carry 4 people, have 500 lbs of gear in the bed, and still tow a 8000 lbs enclosed trailer. I'm inclined to think you'll be exceeding the capacity (specifically, rear axle weight rating) of a modern 1/2 ton pickup (as well as 1/2 ton based full size SUV).

Actually they can with room and capacity to spare. https://automotivetowingguide.com/2023-chevrolet-silverado-1500-towing-capacity/

It's easy to look this stuff up. No need to ponder.

 

[Polo08816]

Actually they can with room and capacity to spare. https://automotivetowingguide.com/2023-chevrolet-silverado-1500-towing-capacity/

It's easy to look this stuff up. No need to ponder.

It's actually not. That link didn't specify the rear axle weight rating for any vehicle. In fact, the rear axle weight rating for a particular vehicle would only be located on the data stamp on the door frame. It's also specific for each build as options tend to increase curb weight and reduce payloda.

Here's an illustration of the problem for 1/2 ton based vehicles:

Payload capacity ~ 1500 lbs
6 passengers at 175lbs each ~ 1000lbs
Luggage for each passenger - 6 passengers * 50 lbs ~ 300lbs

You have about 200lbs of payload capacity remaining so you really can't tow much at that point.

This isn't a problem with a 1 ton SRW gas HD pickup because you'll tend to have payload capacities in the 3250 to 4000lbs range.

 

[DuraYuk]

It's actually not. That link didn't specify the rear axle weight rating for any vehicle. In fact, the rear axle weight rating for a particular vehicle would only be located on the data stamp on the door frame. It's also specific for each build as options tend to increase curb weight and reduce payloda.

Here's an illustration of the problem for 1/2 ton based vehicles:

Payload capacity ~ 1500 lbs
6 passengers at 175lbs each ~ 1000lbs
Luggage for each passenger - 6 passengers * 50 lbs ~ 300lbs

You have about 200lbs of payload capacity remaining so you really can't tow much at that point.

This isn't a problem with a 1 ton SRW gas HD pickup because you'll tend to have payload capacities in the 3250 to 4000lbs range.

You said 1/2 ton pickups. My reply was to that. The 2023 1/2 tons have way more then 1500 payload as my link outlined. And can tow up to 13000 pounds.

This data is all over the internet. All you have to do is search. It's easy.

4 people with 500 pounds of gear with 8000 pound trailer:
2023 6.2 Silverado payload 2300lbs max tow 13100 pounds:
175x4= 700 occupant weight
700+500= 1200 occupant weight with gear
2300-1200= 1100 payload capacity remaining
Unless your 8000 pound trailer has a 1000 pound tongue weight you are fine.

 

[Polo08816]

It's actually not. That link didn't specify the rear axle weight rating for any vehicle. In fact, the rear axle weight rating for a particular vehicle would only be located on the data stamp on the door frame. It's also specific for each build as options tend to increase curb weight and reduce payloda.

Here's an illustration of the problem for 1/2 ton based vehicles:

Payload capacity ~ 1500 lbs
6 passengers at 175lbs each ~ 1000lbs
Luggage for each passenger - 6 passengers * 50 lbs ~ 300lbs

You have about 200lbs of payload capacity remaining so you really can't tow much at that point.

This isn't a problem with a 1 ton SRW gas HD pickup because you'll tend to have payload capacities in the 3250 to 4000lbs range.

You said 1/2 ton pickups. My reply was to that. The 2023 1/2 tons have way more then 1500 payload as my link outlined. And can tow up to 13000 pounds.

This data is all over the internet. All you have to do is search. It's easy.

4 people with 500 pounds of gear with 8000 pound trailer:
2023 6.2 Silverado payload 2300lbs max tow 13100 pounds:
175x4= 700 occupant weight
700+500= 1200 occupant weight with gear
2300-1200= 1100 payload capacity remaining
Unless your 8000 pound trailer has a 1000 pound tongue weight you are fine.

Your link specifies the maximum payload for what usually is a 4x2 base trim regular cab short bed 1/2 ton pickup. If you end up with a 4x4 crew cab in an upper trim, your payload will be way below the maximum payload. Like I've said earlier, I've seen the data plates stamped on the door frame for these vehicles. GM usually does a bit better at 1450-1700lbs. Ram is the lowest usually at 900-1200 lbs for a Limited trim and Ford is around 1350-1500 for a Platinum trim. You're going to want around 15% on the tongue so that's around 1,200 lbs. You're going to use up most of your payload on the tongue weight of a 8,000lbs trailer.

In fact, a flat bed car trailer is one of the easiest types of trailers to optimize because there's little cross section for the wind to cause sway and you can move the towed vehicle forward and backwards to adjust weight. An enclosed car trailer is similar but you have a much larger cross section that can result in more sway. The hardest trailer would be an camper because you can't easily adjust the balance of the trailer to optimize tongue weight as the other 2 trailers.

Ram is the only truck manufacturer with an online payload calculator by VIN (again, because you'll find that the actual payload for builds varies greatly):

Ram Towing | Find the Best Truck for Your Towing Needs

Find everything you need to know about Ram towing capacity, payload & more here. Discover the best Ram truck or van that fits your towing needs today.

www.ramtrucks.com

Ultimately, with a 1/2 ton someone should definitely have the vehicle (as loaded) + trailer over a certified scale to be near 100% sure they're within all the limits (rear axle weight rating + GCWR).

 

[DuraYuk]

Your link specifies the maximum payload for what usually is a 4x2 base trim regular cab short bed 1/2 ton pickup. If you end up with a 4x4 crew cab in an upper trim, your payload will be way below the maximum payload. Like I've said earlier, I've seen the data plates stamped on the door frame for these vehicles. GM usually does a bit better at 1450-1700lbs. Ram is the lowest usually at 900-1200 lbs for a Limited trim and Ford is around 1350-1500 for a Platinum trim. You're going to want around 15% on the tongue so that's around 1,200 lbs. You're going to use up most of your payload on the tongue weight of a 8,000lbs trailer.

In fact, a flat bed car trailer is one of the easiest types of trailers to optimize because there's little cross section for the wind to cause sway and you can move the towed vehicle forward and backwards to adjust weight. An enclosed car trailer is similar but you have a much larger cross section that can result in more sway. The hardest trailer would be an camper because you can't easily adjust the balance of the trailer to optimize tongue weight as the other 2 trailers.

Ram is the only truck manufacturer with an online payload calculator by VIN (again, because you'll find that the actual payload for builds varies greatly):

Ram Towing | Find the Best Truck for Your Towing Needs

Find everything you need to know about Ram towing capacity, payload & more here. Discover the best Ram truck or van that fits your towing needs today.

www.ramtrucks.com

Ultimately, with a 1/2 ton someone should definitely have the vehicle (as loaded) + trailer over a certified scale to be near 100% sure they're within all the limits (rear axle weight rating + GCWR).

https://gmauthority.com/blog/2022/11/here-are-the-2023-chevy-silverado-1500-towing-capacities/

Towing capacity doesn't change for cab configuration by much. Payload has a 400 pound spread based on cab. You cannot get a single cab in the new trucks unless it's a stripped down work truck for fleet.

The GM trucks beat the dodges but actually trail the f150.

So again 1/2 ton is more then capable of doing what you described initially.

Tech has brought 1/2 pickups to the realm of yesterday's 3/4 ton trucks all while riding better and being more efficient.

 

[Polo08816]

https://gmauthority.com/blog/2022/11/here-are-the-2023-chevy-silverado-1500-towing-capacities/

Towing capacity doesn't change for cab configuration by much. Payload has a 400 pound spread based on cab. You cannot get a single cab in the new trucks unless it's a stripped down work truck for fleet.

The GM trucks beat the dodges but actually trail the f150.

So again 1/2 ton is more then capable of doing what you described initially.

Tech has brought 1/2 pickups to the realm of yesterday's 3/4 ton trucks all while riding better and being more efficient.

The reoccurring theme here is that the numbers you are citing are largely special/unicorn cases and not a more common scenario.

The Heavy Duty Payload Package can only be optioned in the XL or XLT trims for the F150. The additional payload capacity is largely due to the effective spring rate of the leaf pack for that particular package. The last row with the combined rating of 4,800 is the Heavy Duty Payload Package. The 4,050/4,150 is the Max Tow package. All else equal, the F150 without the HDPP will have about 750lbs less payload than the max advertised payload from Ford. Most likely even less if you're referring to a higher trim F150.

Most GM 1500 pickups will tend to have more payload capacity than common F150s. That's why the GM 1500 pickups also ride a bit rougher or bumpier than the F150.

Contrary to the layman's belief, the reason the 1/2 tons "may" tow as much as a HD pickup a decade or two ago isn't due to some secret squirrel "tech". It's because these trucks have grown in size to the point where they may physically be the same size or weight of a HD pickup a decade or two ago. But it's really hard to have significant payload capacity and ride well and comfortably at the same time.

It's actually going to be harder and harder to increase payload capacity as long as the EPA vehicle classification based on vehicle weight remain unchanged:

Alternative Fuels Data Center: Maps and Data - Vehicle Weight Classes and Categories

afdc.energy.gov

This is largely what separates 1/2 ton, 3/4 ton, and 1 ton pickups.

 

[RedInCo]

We're drifting away from "Expedition vs. Yukon" but I have to mention this: I have test driven a few T1XX (2019 to 2021) pickups with "max trailering". All crew cab 4x4. An RST had payload of 2035 pounds. (5.3L, short bed, bucket seats w/ leather, no sunroof, no bed liner, no running boards). An SLT had 1784 (5.3L, standard bed, bucket seats, leather, sunroof, running boards). An LTZ had 1858 (6.2L, short bed, bucket seats, leather, no sunroof, no bedliner)

 

[DuraYuk]

We're drifting away from "Expedition vs. Yukon" but I have to mention this: I have test driven a few T1XX (2019 to 2021) pickups with "max trailering". All crew cab 4x4. An RST had payload of 2035 pounds. (5.3L, short bed, bucket seats w/ leather, no sunroof, no bed liner, no running boards). An SLT had 1784 (5.3L, standard bed, bucket seats, leather, sunroof, running boards). An LTZ had 1858 (6.2L, short bed, bucket seats, leather, no sunroof, no bedliner)

Yup that's my point. Payload has increased across the board and not just for 'unicorns' like the one guy is implying. Anyways you are right we are going away from topic..

 

[mb1500]

The limitation is payload on these 1/2 tons you almost always hit payload before anything else.

They are way more capable than they used to be, but if you want to operate on the upper scale of the capabilities of the truck a HD is a much better choice.

I see it all the time, 1/2 ton pulling a double axle travel trailer, golf cart and luggage in the bed, dragging chains and swaying all over the highway.

Know your vehicles specs and operate within those limits, not just you on the road.

 

[gooffeyguy]

Yet these new trucks with 13k towing capacity still run 6 lug axles and wheels/tires that only have weight ratings of around 2600 lbs

 

[Polo08816]

The limitation is payload on these 1/2 tons you almost always hit payload before anything else.

They are way more capable than they used to be, but if you want to operate on the upper scale of the capabilities of the truck a HD is a much better choice.

I see it all the time, 1/2 ton pulling a double axle travel trailer, golf cart and luggage in the bed, dragging chains and swaying all over the highway.

Know your vehicles specs and operate within those limits, not just you on the road.

Yet these new trucks with 13k towing capacity still run 6 lug axles and wheels/tires that only have weight ratings of around 2600 lbs

But the wheel studs on these new trucks are made of new tech - unobtanium or adamantium - didn't you know?

 

[DuraYuk]

But the wheel studs on these new trucks are made of new tech - unobtanium or adamantium - didn't you know?

Engineering is not your strong suit. Lmao.

 

[Polo08816]

Engineering is not your strong suit. Lmao.

Clearly, neither is sarcasm.

And clearly, we're both not mechanical engineers by trade or tow 8000lbs+ enclosed trailers often either. The former would tend to advocate for a HD pickup since they're generally well versed in rear axle weight ratings, GVWR, GCWR, tongue weight (which acts as a lever on the rear axle with respect to bumper towing), etc.

 

[DuraYuk]

Clearly, neither is sarcasm.

And clearly, we're both not mechanical engineers by trade or tow 8000lbs+ enclosed trailers often either. The former would tend to advocate for a HD pickup since they're generally well versed in rear axle weight ratings, GVWR, GCWR, tongue weight (which acts as a lever on the rear axle with respect to bumper towing), etc.

I am a mechanical engineer. Used to be a GM transmission tech.. I am not advocating for anything except to share factual information.

GM has a trailering book that has all the information you seek. I would post it here but it's a PDF and not a link. If you Google GM trailering guide should be the first thing that comes up. I don't have a copy yet of the 2023 book but you can look up the 2022 book that has capacities and calculators for everything that GM makes that can tow, even breaks down trailer types and cab and trim configurations.

 

[Polo08816]

I am a mechanical engineer. Used to be a GM transmission tech.. I am not advocating for anything except to share factual information.

GM has a trailering book that has all the information you seek. I would post it here but it's a PDF and not a link. If you Google GM trailering guide should be the first thing that comes up. I don't have a copy yet of the 2023 book but you can look up the 2022 book that has capacities and calculators for everything that GM makes that can tow, even breaks down trailer types and cab and trim configurations.

https://www.gmc.com/content/dam/gmc/na/us/english/index/about/trailering-towing/02-pdfs/03-pdfs/GMTB21CT100_2021_GMC_Trailering%20Guide_DIGITAL.pdf

It actually doesn't break it down by trim configurations and in every single chart, it has the following disclaimer:

Before you buy a vehicle or use it to haul people or cargo, carefully review the vehicle loading section of the Owner’s Manual and check the carrying capacity
of your specific vehicle on the label on the inside of the driver’s doorjamb.

They say this because, as I've said before, it's specific for each trim and how each vehicle is optioned.

Ram is the only manufacturer that makes it somewhat easier for someone to find out the capacities because their tool is VIN specific:

Ram Towing | Find the Best Truck for Your Towing Needs

Find everything you need to know about Ram towing capacity, payload & more here. Discover the best Ram truck or van that fits your towing needs today.

www.ramtrucks.com

 

[Polo08816]

The girlfriend has a 2022 Expedition Limited Max rental while her BMW X3 is being repaired from being rear ended.

She really likes it and local Ford dealers have much better inventory than the GM products. We might end up ordering a 2023 Expedition Max Limited with the Stealth Performance Package from Granger Ford.

While the GM products may be better, for us, these are still interchangeable and there's no way I'm going to commit to spending $70+k without dealers/rental car places having a similarly configured SUV to test drive.

The devil you know is better than the devil you don't.

Also, I'm not inclined to play the "find a dealer with an allocation" game that GM has going on.

 

[DuraYuk]

The girlfriend has a 2022 Expedition Limited Max rental while her BMW X3 is being repaired from being rear ended.

She really likes it and local Ford dealers have much better inventory than the GM products. We might end up ordering a 2023 Expedition Max Limited with the Stealth Performance Package from Granger Ford.

While the GM products may be better, for us, these are still interchangeable and there's no way I'm going to commit to spending $70+k without dealers/rental car places having a similarly configured SUV to test drive.

The devil you know is better than the devil you don't.

Also, I'm not inclined to play the "find a dealer with an allocation" game that GM has going on.

View attachment 387435

If she likes it roll with it. I don't think anything in the full size class comes close to the GM products. I'm a Toyota fan at heart and couldn't stomach the 23 Sequoia when interior room and efficiency was a priority for us.

There is a reason you see tons of FOMOCO products and stellantis stuff on the lots. Fleet sales hurt resale value too so im kinda glad you don't see as many GM full sizes at rental places.

But that's the benefit of variety. Something for all of us to like, enjoy, and purchase. Good luck!

 

[Polo08816]

If she likes it roll with it. I don't think anything in the full size class comes close to the GM products. I'm a Toyota fan at heart and couldn't stomach the 23 Sequoia when interior room and efficiency was a priority for us.

There is a reason you see tons of FOMOCO products and stellantis stuff on the lots. Fleet sales hurt resale value too so im kinda glad you don't see as many GM full sizes at rental places.

But that's the benefit of variety. Something for all of us to like, enjoy, and purchase. Good luck!

There are pros and cons for each full size.

I'm not of the opinion that the gap between GM products and others is so wide that it would cause the average consumer to not consider anything other than GM products or to endure significantly longer waits. However, I do expect that sentiment to be more frequent on a GM forum due to some confirmation bias.

I'm not a fan of the 2023 Sequoia because it's not offered in the extended wheel base, doesn't use independent rear suspension, and doesn't offer a non-hybrid option.

I'm not too concerned with resale value because all of our cars have over 125k miles on them. When I buy them, I assume they're going to be worth $0 by the time I'm done with them. In fact, 2 out of my 4 previous cars have grenaded their engines close to their expected end of life. My 335i decided to self ventilate through the bottom and take out the steering rack while I was at VIR.