Black Bear Tune

[MeanGreen03]

I'm meeting up in Forth Worth for the tune this weekend and have a couple of questions. Do we need to run the appropriate octane for the tune we want before we get the tune? Is it even beneficial to have a 91 octane tune over a 87?

[tybardy]

best to send justin these questions as he is SUPER responsive and will give you good advice.

also,

91 octane FTW!

[coopiesb]

im going with the 93 tune!!! yeah i would ask jenna or justin for the specifics on the differnce

[MeanGreen03]

Yeah I know we have 93 around here but I think that might be overkill. There is a law of diminishing effect that comes into play and I dont want to have to pay more for gas than I have to but we will see what they have to say first.

[JennaBear]

Definitely have the octane you plan on running in your tank when getting your tune. I would encourage the higher octane tunes....many people get a low octane tune and wind up getting a retune for a higher octane. Better performance and MPG.

[Sasquatch]

Definitely have the octane you plan on running in your tank when getting your tune. I would encourage the higher octane tunes....many people get a low octane tune and wind up getting a retune for a higher octane. Better performance and MPG.

i happen to be one of those people. i initially got a 91 tune and loved it. i just got it retuned to the 93 octane and i love it even more, i`m just pissed i didn`t go with the 93 first.

but whatever one you go with you won`t be disappointed.

[tybardy]

91 is the highest octane you can get in phoenix!!

[Grocery Getter]

91 is the highest octane you can get in phoenix!!

Not true TY, there is a spot in Awatukee that has 100 at the pump for like $8/gal....hahaha. I use E85 which is 105 octane, the spot I go to also sells VP racing fuels and has unleded from 100-110 octane. There are two or three E85 stations in town if you have a flex fuel and one is nearby I highly recommend using it. Here is a link to high Octane fuel stations in Phx:

http://www.azmustangs.com/racegas.htm

[tybardy]

i dont see myself using E85... hard on the motor, terrible on the gas millage and not cheap enough to warrant either of those two things. Unfortunately, I dont think i love the environment that much.

I wouldnt mind using some unleded 100 octane! thats a little pricey though, hahaha

[Grocery Getter]

i dont see myself using E85... hard on the motor, terrible on the gas millage and not cheap enough to warrant either of those two things. Unfortunately, I dont think i love the environment that much.

I wouldnt mind using some unleded 100 octane! thats a little pricey though, hahaha

Well, I disagree. I don't know about the hard on the motor part, I spoke with Justin about E85 a few times and while he has plenty to say he never said it was hard on the motor. As for milage and cost if you do the math it is a wash and you will spend about 5% less to go the same amount of miles. Basically E85 is about 25% less efficient so if you're getting 20MPG's(just for conversations sake) you'll get 15 but it's 25-30% cheaper(E85 $2.00-$228/ 91 $2.70-$3.00) so if you're running 91 Octane(and not getting the most out of your 93 BB Tune) it's a wash or you save a little cash. I spend the same amount on gas each week as I did running 91 I just have to fill up an extra time so now I use about 1.5 tanks of gas as apposed to 1. I'll tell ya' I hate when I have to run 91 the difference is very noticeable. I am not so sold on the environmental aspect of it but I do think it helps decrease the need for foreign oil and that's a selling point for be but overall the performance is what has me going back. I don't think it is convenient enough here in Phx for a lot of people to use it, I happen to have a station right by my house or I probably wouldn't use it but don't write it off, I think it's a good fuel............

[blueflamed03]

I'm meeting up in Forth Worth for the tune this weekend and have a couple of questions. Do we need to run the appropriate octane for the tune we want before we get the tune? Is it even beneficial to have a 91 octane tune over a 87?

tell the Dr Robert Rickords down there, Tracy form Oklahoma says HI :D

[tybardy]

Well, I disagree. I don't know about the hard on the motor part, I spoke with Justin about E85 a few times and while he has plenty to say he never said it was hard on the motor. As for milage and cost if you do the math it is a wash and you will spend about 5% less to go the same amount of miles. Basically E85 is about 25% less efficient so if you're getting 20MPG's(just for conversations sake) you'll get 15 but it's 25-30% cheaper(E85 $2.00-$228/ 91 $2.70-$3.00) so if you're running 91 Octane(and not getting the most out of your 93 BB Tune) it's a wash or you save a little cash. I spend the same amount on gas each week as I did running 91 I just have to fill up an extra time so now I use about 1.5 tanks of gas as apposed to 1. I'll tell ya' I hate when I have to run 91 the difference is very noticeable. I am not so sold on the environmental aspect of it but I do think it helps decrease the need for foreign oil and that's a selling point for be but overall the performance is what has me going back. I don't think it is convenient enough here in Phx for a lot of people to use it, I happen to have a station right by my house or I probably wouldn't use it but don't write it off, I think it's a good fuel............


you have made me second guess... im going to do some more homework on the subject. prolly going to get in touch with justin as well...

so you used to have a 91 octane tune then switched to e85 tune and the truck has more power?

[Grocery Getter]

you have made me second guess... im going to do some more homework on the subject. prolly going to get in touch with justin as well...

so you used to have a 91 octane tune then switched to e85 tune and the truck has more power?

I personally feel like I gained an extra cylinder on the E85, it's substantial. I have gone back and forth several times due to the fact the station near me is not open on the weekends and also from going out of town......I'm hooked on the corn like crack..........

[tybardy]

what happens when you cant find it? do you just put 91 in?

[Grocery Getter]

what happens when you cant find it? do you just put 91 in?

Yeah, you can mix it if you want. That's what some ppl do. I tried it to try and get the best of both worlds, power and a little better milage. I did 50/50 and I gained 1mpg or so but the power wasn't there so I said 100% corn was better. I think there is a station in Mesa

http://www.westernstatespetroleum.com/e85-biodiesel.html

Call, give it a try. Knowing how much you like power I'm pretty sure you'll like it.

[blueflamed03]

so you see huge power gains.

[Grocery Getter]

so you see huge power gains.

I feel like i do. I can't say what the official dyno results would be but I know in my truck 91 feels like mud pedal compared E85.

[blueflamed03]

hmmm, I'm tuned for the 93, i may try a half a tank of E85 and see what happens.

[Grocery Getter]

hmmm, I'm tuned for the 93, i may try a half a tank of E85 and see what happens.

If your gonna try it I suggest a full tank of E85, I tried mixing 50/50 and the power is no where near what it is on 100% E85. You can always fill up a whole tank of E85 and drive off 1/2 tank and add 93 if you don't like it.

[blueflamed03]

true, going to try it....

[Grocery Getter]

If your gonna try it I suggest a full tank of E85, I tried mixing 50/50 and the power is no where near what it is on 100% E85. You can always fill up a whole tank of E85 and drive off 1/2 tank and add 93 if you don't like it.

Dumb suggestion of the day:signs75:
You could also just put 1/2 tank of E85 in an empty tank ......jzus I'm losing it today.

[blueflamed03]

true, but I knew what you meant :D

[tybardy]

i am thinking that putting e85 into your tank with a 93 tune wont do much for you compared to having your motor tuned to take e85.

Rational..

If e85 is actually 105 octane, then justin would lean out the tune even more to accept the e85 gas, which would in turn give you the proper fuel/air mixture. then you would see the power gains you want...

i could be wrong on this point... but im pretty sure its going to work like that.

[Grocery Getter]

i am thinking that putting e85 into your tank with a 93 tune wont do much for you compared to having your motor tuned to take e85.

Rational..

If e85 is actually 105 octane, then justin would lean out the tune even more to accept the e85 gas, which would in turn give you the proper fuel/air mixture. then you would see the power gains you want...

i could be wrong on this point... but im pretty sure its going to work like that.

I am sure he could tune for E85 and it would be wicked but you'd be kinda screwed here in the West. He could definitely get much more out of the fuel with a tune for it but then you would HAVE to run it and it is just not that readily available, especially here in AZ. I definitely can tell a difference, like how my truck runs, and have a station five minutes away so I go with it but I wouldn't tune for it since the station is not open on weekends and if you leave the city and go up to Flagstaff for the day your screwed and will ping all the way home when you have to fill up with 91. It's really not that big of a deal to run, try it and if you like it and it's convenient enough for you to get it certainly won't hurt.

My thinking is I have a 93 tune and so I am definitely not getting the most out of it with 91 so the E85@105 is getting the most out of my tune for sure. Could it be optimized for E85 and run even better on it, for sure but that is not practical.

[sschrader]

Grocery Getter, I read your posts about the E85 and stopped at one of the two stations that carry it in my town. One being a few blocks away, my tank was just about empty. Filled it with $1.90 a gallon E85. A few miles down the road I could tell a huge difference, it's like a whole new truck. And this is with the 22's I just put on. Not sure why I never tried it before, but thank you for posting all the info!

For anyone that has a flex fuel truck, try it out!

[Grocery Getter]

Grocery Getter, I read your posts about the E85 and stopped at one of the two stations that carry it in my town. One being a few blocks away, my tank was just about empty. Filled it with $1.90 a gallon E85. A few miles down the road I could tell a huge difference, it's like a whole new truck. And this is with the 22's I just put on. Not sure why I never tried it before, but thank you for posting all the info!

For anyone that has a flex fuel truck, try it out!


Awesome! I'm glad I'm not crazy
Now your hooked on the corn and $1.90 holy crap! I pay $2.28 here in Phx ip from $2.02 a few months ago. It's good
stuff spread the word....

[sschrader]

Yeah I couldn't believe the price either, 87 here is about $2.50. It was nice to fill the truck for $30.

[Eagle]

Ugggh. I wish I could even GET e85 to try it out.

[tybardy]

still to scared to try it.... heard it was hard on the motor but i cannot find any information about that one way or the other. If i go and fill up with this stuff and it turns out to give me more power.... i will be hooked!!

[Grocery Getter]

still to scared to try it.... heard it was hard on the motor but i cannot find any information about that one way or the other. If i go and fill up with this stuff and it turns out to give me more power.... i will be hooked!!

It will undoubtably give you more power. I still don't know what you heard about it being hard on the motor but it's not as far as I have been able to find out. Tens of thousands of vehicles run on it and fleets of government cars/trucks as well, the government Alt Fuel station is just down the block from my E85 station. The fact the same guy that wants to adjust his timing, run a supercharger , and has all systems maxed out by BB is worried about E85 being hard on the engine is what I find funny....... it won't hurt your rig TY and even if it is a little more work as far as combusting the fuel(just a wild guess at how it could be harder on the engine) it's not any harder than all the mods you would do to your engine if you had the means......

disclaimer: I could be totally wrong :emotions33:

[blueflamed03]

but are those Flex Fuel vehicles?

[Eagle]

The deal with e85 is this.

it is
a: corrosive to seals and some metals
b: has les energy per gallon,
c: and stoich is a differnt ratio, so you need either longer pulses or larger injectors to achieve the same combustion ratio


D: the higher cotane means it burns more slowly and coolly, so you can run leaner OVERALL mix or more timing with e85 or higher compression (or all the above) than you cna with gas.
e: IIRc ethanol actually ignites about as easily as petrol and atomizes about as easily so you don't need some monster spark system


What would be a piston melting tune on 93 octane gasoline, and a ragged edge tune on 100 octane unleaded, is very safe on e85. Thus unless you have a flex fuel vehicle, if you tune for e85 and then have to fill up with gas, you are going to run like poo... Way way fat, and probably knock from excessive timing too.


IIRC e85 was about the 42% less energy, stioch was around 9.7:1

You would think you needed to throw 42% more fuel to make up for it, but you don't. What folks did was run ~25% more injector so you get a leaner final mix under open loop, and let the ecu find stoich with it's adaptation. Then bump the timing up 3-5 degrees.


At least that is how you do it on OBDI vehicles that my friends have converted in other places to run on it.


Problem is again that when you are NOT using e85 nad it isn't flex fuel, the timing and fueling are way off, and you get poor power and economy. you need to reflash it back.

[Grocery Getter]

The deal with e85 is this.

it is
a: corrosive to seals and some metals
b: has les energy per gallon,
c: and stoich is a differnt ratio, so you need either longer pulses or larger injectors to achieve the same combustion ratio


D: the higher cotane means it burns more slowly and coolly, so you can run leaner OVERALL mix or more timing with e85 or higher compression (or all the above) than you cna with gas.
e: IIRc ethanol actually ignites about as easily as petrol and atomizes about as easily so you don't need some monster spark system


What would be a piston melting tune on 93 octane gasoline, and a ragged edge tune on 100 octane unleaded, is very safe on e85. Thus unless you have a flex fuel vehicle, if you tune for e85 and then have to fill up with gas, you are going to run like poo... Way way fat, and probably knock from excessive timing too.


IIRC e85 was about the 42% less energy, stioch was around 9.7:1

You would think you needed to throw 42% more fuel to make up for it, but you don't. What folks did was run ~25% more injector so you get a leaner final mix under open loop, and let the ecu find stoich with it's adaptation. Then bump the timing up 3-5 degrees.


At least that is how you do it on OBDI vehicles that my friends have converted in other places to run on it.


Problem is again that when you are NOT using e85 nad it isn't flex fuel, the timing and fueling are way off, and you get poor power and economy. you need to reflash it back.

Good info! This is in reference to non flex fuel vehicles? If it is flex fuel all the corrosion issues are not applicable and it is set up to hand both, am I right?

---------- Post added at 11:54 AM ---------- Previous post was at 11:53 AM ----------

but are those Flex Fuel vehicles?

Yes, Flex fuel for sure. I'd never try it if mine wasn't.

[Eagle]

Good info! This is in reference to non flex fuel vehicles? If it is flex fuel all the corrosion issues are not applicable and it is set up to hand both, am I right?


Yes on flex fuels, from my limited reading about them, are set up with some mean of reading the alky content of the fuel, and thus adjust themselves back and forth.


I really should go see look at the vin to see if the tahoe is a flex fuel truck. It was from Cali, but I seriously doubt it is.

[gtbigup01]

Does anyone have dyno graphs to back up these claims of power gains or is it just butt dyno? Do you guys ever take ur trucks to the track? Excuse my questions but I'm coming from the car world (Japs) no not Honda civics, but Infiniti G35 and Nissan maxima, my point is when I see talk of power gains I like to see more than words, dyno graphs or track slips. If you guys are just doing all these performance mods just for kicks, well that's kool too. I just would like to see what I'm getting before i buy

[JennaBear]

I have tons of dyno graphs, but we only use load bearing dynos for tuning, as we aren't interested in DynoJet numbers. If you check out performancetrucks.net, quite a few of our customers have posted their before/after time slips as well as what their current set ups are running.

[gtbigup01]

I have tons of dyno graphs, but we only use load bearing dynos for tuning, as we aren't interested in DynoJet numbers. If you check out performancetrucks.net, quite a few of our customers have posted their before/after time slips as well as what their current set ups are running.

Thank you, will chek them out and probably hit you up later for my special tune also