why is the 4l60e such a P.O.S.?!

[mdiacont322]

What makes the 4l60e such garbage? this is my 4th one and i think its already on its way out after only a couple thousand miles.

How hard is it to put a 4l80e in a 1997 tahoe so i dont have this problem anymore?

Mike

[rican4lfe]

this article should help...
http://www.gmt400.com/forum/showthread.php?654-4l60e-to-4l80e-conversion-article-from-Four-Wheeler

[retorq]

Are you putting stock ones back in where stock ones failed?? I rebuilt mine in my garage and it's shifting today like it did the day I put it in. I don't go easy on mine either, lots of hills and mtns, spinning tires up highway on ramps, hard stop light launches and I've been known to race it occasionally.

[blueflamed03]

agreed, makes ya wonder why they did them from the 90's al the way through...why keep adding great trucks, trashy tranny...another, look at Dodge tranny's...why....

[95TwinTT]

First of all, the 4L60e suffers from having undersized three / four, clutch discs, for the truck application.

There are two ways to improve the performance of those clutch discs. Increase the number of them, or increase the trans pressure, or both. When they add disc’s they have to be thinner to occupy the same space, so they tend to heat up faster being thinner.

The “e” in 4L60e, stands for “electronic”. The ECM controls the trans pressure using Throttle position, Mass Air Flow, RPM’s and Vehicle speed. There are other considerations also, but those are the main ingredients.

If your going through transmissions in a few thousand miles, I would expect there is something wrong with the ECM settings. Hooking up a pressure gauge and going for a test drive should quickly prove if all is proper.

In a manual transmission application, when the clutch pedal is released, spring pressure clamps the disc and pressure plate together. In the 4L60e, it is hydraulic pressure, provided by a pump that holds the clutch disc together. How tight they are depends on the settings in the ECM and it’s interpretation of the above mentioned input sensors.

The “Force Motor” tables in the ECM are where the settings are made on what trans pressure is used for the TPS and MAF input.

When power settings are high, the pressure is high and when power demand is lowered, the pressure drops to make the shifts smoother. Depending on the trans and how it is built, pressures can range from 60 psi to 300 psi.

I use separate controllers for my 4L60e and 4L80e. To me it is cheap insurance that the trans is operated properly for performance applications.

As far as the trans being a POS, the 4L60e itself is not the culprit in most cases. There are millions of them out there that work just fine, when they are used in a cars they were designed for. General Motors should have used 4L80e’s in all ½ ton trucks and up to start with IMHO.

Also, the newer vehicles have the torque control that drops the torque during shifts to try to improve the life of the tranny’s. :)

[cam3439]

On my stock tune I found out that the torque converter was staying locked during shifting. From what I've been told, this is bad since it puts stress on the trans during a weak point (shifting). Just an FYI on what I found on my stock tune for my 4L60E.

[blueflamed03]

60e in a big heavy truck is just not strong enough, true, in a car they may be fine, 3500-3800 lbs. But a 6000 lb sled...that's why the 65e was made, to handle more power in the Denali's, etc.

[mdiacont322]

well... trans number 1 was stock. It overheated due to a crushed cooler line.
#2- burnt a clutch pack and the front pump
#3- snapped the output shaft in TWO places
#4- Who knows?

The trans was supposedly rebuilt with extra clutches every time (I was told it would make it stronger).

the truck is not stock either. Is it possible that I could be overpowering the trans? I have a machined TB (bored to 75mm and restrictor plate taken off the butterfly), Spectre intake, flowmaster 40 exhaust, and a Superchips flashpaq.

how hard is it to rebuild the 60e to make it stronger?

And thanks for the link rican4lfe

[blackcoffee]

I think MonsterTransmissions sell rebuild packs for the 60E. Like Heavy Duty Rebuild packs to upgrade parts aswell. I'd say screw it and go with FinishLineTransmissions or Monster Transmissions and get a built up 65E.

[mdiacont322]

would a 65e fit in a 1997?

And if i switched to an 80e, would the truck be faster or slower due to the different gears? I ran the numbers but i dont really know about trans gear ratios... all the better if it gives it more go! lol

[retorq]

how hard is it to rebuild the 60e to make it stronger?

If I can do it anyone can ... LOL I did a Superior Shift correction kit, upgraded Alto red clutches, Alto red band, Kolene steels, higher element count sprag, 13 vane pump kit, Vette servo, thicker separator plate, "Beast" sun shell .. I stuck with the 4 pinion planetarys but you can get 5 pinion setups like the 4L65 tranny.

Here's my thread on the rebuild, it really wasn't that bad:

http://www.route66wingsandwheels.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=288&view_pics=1

---------- Post added at 08:54 PM ---------- Previous post was at 08:53 PM ----------

would a 65e fit in a 1997?

And if i switched to an 80e, would the truck be faster or slower due to the different gears? I ran the numbers but i dont really know about trans gear ratios... all the better if it gives it more go! lol


There are no external differences between a 65E and a 60E, just internal. You can even use the same computer ...

[mdiacont322]

hey thanks for the info and the link... do you know about the 80e though? Will the gears in the 80e be a fastr setup than the 60 or 65e?

[retorq]

4L80:

Gear Ratios are:

* First Gear - 2.48 to 1.00
* Second Gear - 1.48 to 1.00
* Third Gear - 1.00 to 1.00
* Reverse - 2.07 to 1.00

4L60:

The gearing for the 700 is:

* First - 3.059:1.0
* Second - 1.625:1.0
* Third - 1.000:1.0
* Fourth - 0.696:1.0
* Reverse - 2.294:1.0

I don't know why wikipedia doesn't list the OD for the 80 but I think it's the same ... the 60 will get you out of the hole quicker vs the 80, from a gear ratio stand point. But that 1st to 2nd shift on the 60 is a steep one. The 80 is bigger so it's more weight to haul around. But of course if you are overpowering the 60 then it's a moot point. :D

[mdiacont322]

haha...im just wondering what would be better and more budget effcient... the truck stil moves, so im taking it to the trans shop friday. Its under warranty so if something is bad it wont cost me anything but some downtime, but in the future im wondering what would be the best option if this keeps crapping out on me. its like i have no luck with any of the driveline on this truck... ive gone thru as many rears as trans' :(

---------- Post added at 12:19 AM ---------- Previous post was at 12:12 AM ----------

4L80:


the 60 will get you out of the hole quicker vs the 80, from a gear ratio stand point. But that 1st to 2nd shift on the 60 is a steep one. The 80 is bigger so it's more weight to haul around. But of course if you are overpowering the 60 then it's a moot point. :D

just to clarify... what do you mean by steep? I know i probably sound like an idiot lol.

and the calculator says that the 80e shifts at 10mph higher than the 60e (53mph instead of 43mph)... am i going to notice the truck being slower off the line from an acceleration standpoint?

[retorq]

haha...im just wondering what would be better and more budget effcient... the truck stil moves, so im taking it to the trans shop friday. Its under warranty so if something is bad it wont cost me anything but some downtime, but in the future im wondering what would be the best option if this keeps crapping out on me. its like i have no luck with any of the driveline on this truck... ive gone thru as many rears as trans' :(

---------- Post added at 12:19 AM ---------- Previous post was at 12:12 AM ----------



just to clarify... what do you mean by steep? I know i probably sound like an idiot lol.

and the calculator says that the 80e shifts at 10mph higher than the 60e (53mph instead of 43mph)... am i going to notice the truck being slower off the line from an acceleration standpoint?

If I had the money for a 4L80 retrofit into my truck, I would have went that route. When I rebuilt mine @5 years ago there wasn't as many 4L80 swaps running around as there are now ... not to mention, a 4L80 in a boneyard ... around here?! Not happening. If you have the money I say go for it. :D

Look at the difference in the numbers between 1st and 2nd gear on the 60 vs the 80. There is less of a difference on the 80, which means less RPM drop from the 1st to 2nd gear change. I think from a dead stop the 60 will launch better, but that shift from 1st to 2nd will kill ya if you don't have enough RPMs in the engine.

LOL You must be hard on parts, this is only my second rear end. :D

[95TwinTT]

The 4L80e is just like the "close ratio"4 speeds from the corvettes and muscle cars. True, first gear is taller, but slap in a higher speed stall speed, TC and problem solved for first hear. Once your rollin, the close ratio makes for faster 1/4 mile times. Much more effecient..............

I wish I had done my 80 a few years earlier. I could have saved a ton of money that I wasted on the many 60's I went through. :)

[Arctic-Rodz]

Maybe it hasnt been rebuilt properly? I dont think the mods he has is enough to over power the transmission. All he has is intake, exhaust, and a small tune. Not a HUGE power adder.

[mdiacont322]

I used to be a lot worse on my stuff lol... it really pisses me off though that im treating the hoe like a baby thats not even born yet and its still giving me problems.

Its kind of like murphy's law with this trans, so im wondering do i spend the extra bucks, put a 80e in, and give up a little bit of acceleration... or do i keep breaking the 60e...

What are some weak points in the 60e that i could maybe emphasise on when i take the truck in if it has to be rebuilt AGAIN lol

---------- Post added at 12:16 PM ---------- Previous post was at 12:02 PM ----------

Maybe it hasnt been rebuilt properly? I dont think the mods he has is enough to over power the transmission. All he has is intake, exhaust, and a small tune. Not a HUGE power adder.

good point... im not sure if it was rebuilt properly because
1) i just take it to the "mechanic" and he takes care of it (supposedly)
and
2) if i did take it apart I probably would have no idea what to look for besides burnt clutches or a snapped shaft lol

I looked at the power numbers for the engine stock, engine with the programmer, and trans torque limit...

the engine stock puts out 330 ft lbs of torque.

With the programmer it puts out around 40 more ft lbs at the rear wheels, which means more at the flywheel, according to the dyno sheets from superchips.

I have read that the 4l60e can only handle up to 360 ft. so with the programmer alone it looks like it has too much torque, plus the intake and exhaust. Just a thought though.

Im not an expert but by looking at the numbers it seems possible.

BUT... I also have a strong feeling that this guy that rebuilds them doesnt put them together right either, because he was supposed to make it stronger but it just so seems like they keep breaking.

---------- Post added at 12:18 PM ---------- Previous post was at 12:16 PM ----------

The 4L80e is just like the "close ratio"4 speeds from the corvettes and muscle cars. True, first gear is taller, but slap in a higher speed stall speed, TC and problem solved for first hear. Once your rollin, the close ratio makes for faster 1/4 mile times. Much more effecient..............

I wish I had done my 80 a few years earlier. I could have saved a ton of money that I wasted on the many 60's I went through. :)

i may seem like an idiot... but what does a stall converter actually do? and what did you choose for your tahoe as far as a stall converter and TC?

[Arctic-Rodz]

Are you taking it to a "shade tree" mechanic? that may be the problem. I doubt that superchips is squeezing out 40lb/ft of torque with just a tune. That old 350 is tough to get power out of (ive heard). Heads and cam might give you 40.

Stall converter allowes your engine to rev higher before all the torque gets to the wheels. For example, I have a 3000 stall converter in my 08 Sierra. It allows me to stall it to 3000 RPM and it'll launch off the line at 3000 RPM. Hard to keep the tires planted though. It got me .4 seconds off the 1/4 mi time.

All my mods on my 08 Sierra are on the stock 4L60E and she shifts just fine. And I beat it up pretty good. I know im gonna have to rebuild it down the road so I dont beat it up as often as I use to. Theres a Transmission shop here in South TX that will rebuild the
4L60E to support 550+HP for just under $1000. Not bad I say, thats what ill be doing to mine.

[newmarketeod]

Have you done any other mods like a LARGE tranny cooler in addition to the original, a good high quality fluid or larger tranny pan? Do you have a tranny temp gauge so you can monitor the heat and give us some temperatures you are running at? It seems like a few bolt on mods shouldn't be burning through transmissions like that.

[bottomline2000]

I was told to replace everything when my 1st trans went south. If the shop is reusing the same lines it could be something in the stock cooler lines killing your trans. I had all the lines replaced and a big cooler added so whatever broke the old one wouldn't find its way into the new one. Plus keeping the trans cooler seperate from the radiator sounded like a good idea.

[mdiacont322]

TXGMC- the 4l60e was revised in 1999 because of durability issues. My truck is a 97 so i guess you can say i have the shitty model lol. also, does a stall converter put any extra stress on the driveline? And what is a damn "shade tree" mechanic? lol

also, i dont have a trans temp guage, deep pan, or aftermarket cooler, and I have only changed one line because it was crushed. Other than that it is all the same.

[cam3439]

Are you taking it to a "shade tree" mechanic? that may be the problem. I doubt that superchips is squeezing out 40lb/ft of torque with just a tune. That old 350 is tough to get power out of (ive heard). Heads and cam might give you 40.

Stall converter allowes your engine to rev higher before all the torque gets to the wheels. For example, I have a 3000 stall converter in my 08 Sierra. It allows me to stall it to 3000 RPM and it'll launch off the line at 3000 RPM. Hard to keep the tires planted though. It got me .4 seconds off the 1/4 mi time.

All my mods on my 08 Sierra are on the stock 4L60E and she shifts just fine. And I beat it up pretty good. I know im gonna have to rebuild it down the road so I dont beat it up as often as I use to. Theres a Transmission shop here in South TX that will rebuild the
4L60E to support 550+HP for just under $1000. Not bad I say, thats what ill be doing to mine.

Where exactly is that transmission shop in the Valley? That sounds like a pretty good deal, and what warranties do they offer?

[newmarketeod]

also, i dont have a trans temp guage, deep pan, or aftermarket cooler, and I have only changed one line because it was crushed. Other than that it is all the same.

I would say that may be some of your issue rite there. The factory transmission cooler is just not big enough. I would recomend getting the biggest one you can find and put it in line with your current one. Also would recomend the trans. temp gauge because to me it just doesn't seem intelligent to dump all this money into new transmissions without any way to monitor it?

[Nickleahy23]

I would say that may be some of your issue rite there. The factory transmission cooler is just not big enough. I would recomend getting the biggest one you can find and put it in line with your current one. Also would recomend the trans. temp gauge because to me it just doesn't seem intelligent to dump all this money into new transmissions without any way to monitor it?

i have heard this before, but im running my stock cooler with my built trans and 3k stall, and i have not gone above 165*, which is 5* below normal opperating temp...and thats with beating on it pretty hard the last few days in 65* weather..i suppose this summer it may go higher, but cruising on the interstate in at about 150..

[Arctic-Rodz]

TXGMC- the 4l60e was revised in 1999 because of durability issues. My truck is a 97 so i guess you can say i have the shitty model lol. also, does a stall converter put any extra stress on the driveline? And what is a damn "shade tree" mechanic? lol

also, i dont have a trans temp guage, deep pan, or aftermarket cooler, and I have only changed one line because it was crushed. Other than that it is all the same.

True, 97 to 08 have brought a lot of changes. But, that 97 doesnt put out nearly as much power as the NBS GM trucks... Also, all the Torue management in the NBS trucks keeps the trannys safe. But it kills power, thats why I removed it with the custom tune.

A stall converter does put more stress on the engine because you have to give it more throttle and keep it there to keep moving. I put an Oregon Performance Trans cooler 40K GVWR. My trans was seeing 200+ temp after that 3000 stall. After the cooler it stays under 160 and thats in summer heat 95+ degree outside temp.

The trans shop is called Aamatic Transmission located in Mcallen, TX. Every LS1/LT1 F-body and GM truck owner that races and has a trans rebuilt by Aamatic knows Joel or JR (same guy) some people call him either or. Hes the guy that rebuilds them. Matter of fact, when they put a trans for sale on the forum, they refer to it as a JR tranny. Immediately people know its good. Let me know if you want the address and phone #

---------- Post added at 07:19 AM ---------- Previous post was at 07:13 AM ----------

New trans fluid lines would also be a good idea. Wont matter how much you spend on a transmission and it being the best on the market. If it over heats, its dead. Get a trans temp guage. Good investment. I lucked out, my 08 has it in the menu.

[cam3439]

The trans shop is called Aamatic Transmission located in Mcallen, TX. Every LS1/LT1 F-body and GM truck owner that races and has a trans rebuilt by Aamatic knows Joel or JR (same guy) some people call him either or. Hes the guy that rebuilds them. Matter of fact, when they put a trans for sale on the forum, they refer to it as a JR tranny. Immediately people know its good. Let me know if you want the address and phone #

Yeah, give me the info. If I ever need to rebuild mine, I guess I can try him out. Do you know what type of warranties they offer?

[Arctic-Rodz]

Im not sure on the warranty....
Aamatic 616 S 23rd St Mcallen, TX 78501
956-618-2020

Just tell them what you want done on your trans and what it will be used for and theyll do it to your needs.

[mdiacont322]

So it sounds like the bigger cooler and guage is a smart idea so i will invest... what is the best way to install a bigger cooler and temp guage?

Also, what about a pressure guage?

[retorq]

I ran the factory cooler then took the output and ran it into a cooler in the front of the condenser. Nothing too fancy, used rubber lines. Temp gauge can plug in there or run into the pan. Pressure gauge is a lil more tricky.

[bottomline2000]

Well Jasper Engines gave/sold me a 3 year-100k warranty. I haven't seen anyone offer something like this. they aren't the cheapest, but I have put about 10k miles on it and it shifts like new and they threw in a shift kit which makes for all the more fun. I could have gotten a high end built trans from any other place for the same price, but I didn't want to deal with spending $1k to have it pulled and shipped everytime something went wrong. I got a zero deduct warranty that covers all kinds of crap if something goes wrong.

[drifter666]

Ive burned threw a 4L60e in an s10 blazer cost me 2k to rebuild it with a 2yr 24k mile warranty although I am in the north east I'm sure I got raped considering it is all stock and i think its going again. One thing when you repair something ask for the old parts that way you know they didnt just "put something BACK"

What about an extra filter on the return line would that help also?

[Jaycenk]

What about an extra filter on the return line would that help also?

I have seen guys run and external filter (or remote filter Kit) and ditch the one in the trans (some kept the one in the pan). I think they had to run bigger lines and make a custom pickup tube. Not sure though.